“Consent is a Freely Given, Knowledgeable and Informed Agreement, by a person with the capacity to reason!
– #FGKIA –
Correctly defining consent can save countless victims from sexual assault, domestic violence, sex trafficking, and more! In fact, every human interaction should respect each person’s right to “consent” over their property and their bodily autonomy. Yet consent could be the most misunderstood word in our justice system!
When the Cosby jury asked for the definition for “consent,” in Andrea Constand’s sexual assault case, Judge Steven O’Neill told them, “That’s a question that cannot be answered. You’re reasonable people. Use your common sense!”
When the Weinstein jurors asked for the definition for “consent” in the cases of Miriam Haley and Jessica Mann, Judge James Burke said. “Use your common sense.”
The state of New York and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are only two of the countless, consent-blind jurisdictions across the US and around the world.
Society, YOU, can change the egregious flaws in our laws! CAN is fighting to do exactly that!
YOU can help us make the human right of CONSENT a civil right backed by law!
Legislating the definition for consent in the penal code of every jurisdiction will make a world of difference! But no jurisdiction… absolutely none…. provides an actual definition for the noun “consent” in its penal law.
In fact, many states embed blame-the-victim concepts into their penal laws, including that the “words and actions” of the victim determine whether consent took place or not. This ignorant, archaic concept ignores that when someone uses malicious influence to secure your agreement or compliance, you are not consenting no matter what you say or do; and no matter how emphatically you say or do it!
Malicious influence, not the words and actions that result from malicious influence, are the determining factor between guilt or innocence in an enlightened society. No one has the right to use force, fear, fraud, or exploit your incapacity, to take what they want from YOU!
Consent is a unique and specialized form of “agreement.”
The accurate definition for consent is supported by Canon Law, Model Penal Code, Nuremberg Code, General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), Voting Rights Law, and more.
“Consent is a Freely Given, Knowledgeable and Informed Agreement, by a person with the capacity to reason!
– #FGKIA –
CAN currently has CONSENT bills pending in New York State and US federal law…. and is working on several legislative bills in additional locations.
Here’s what YOU can do to help!
- Watch this TEDx Talk for a clear understanding.
- Read Your Consent – The Key to Conquering Sexual Assault to determine how the laws in your jurisdiction effect YOU, your children, and your children’s children.
- Become a Consent Crusader in your jurisdiction.
- Sign the petition that supports the current CONSENT bills that are pending.
- Donate, because CAN cannot change the laws across the US and around the world without YOU!
Copyright, USA, Joyce Short- All rights reserved and strictly enforced.
Except where otherwise indicated, all content on this blog is the intellectual property of the author. Do not copy or repost any content without express, written permission by the author. Info@ConsentAwareness.net.
748 thoughts on “Home”
I find it interesting that many of the men leaving comments seem only to understand consent in respect to violations between trans perpetrators on men. This, I suppose is a worse fear and the only way they can empathize ??
Honestly women are victims so often comparatively, not to take away from this, but if this is all you have to help you understand or empathize? It’s really not that hard to understand how often women are victims of sexual violence and sexual misconduct. I have 2 daughters who have been assaulted in the last year, both under 21 and it’s devastating. I myself have been both abused and assaulted and most every woman I know has some story of sexual assault. It’s a huge issue.
So sorry to hear of the troubles you faced. As Ruth Bader Ginsburg said…. “We change nothing until we change our laws.” CAN is doing everything in our power to make that happen! Wishing you and your daughters peace and recovery!
I strongly favor about the consent awareness which is crucial in saving countless victims from sexual assault, domestic violence, and sex trafficking. As far as studies is concern, gaslighting, a form of emotional abuse, can be a malicious influence that undermines a person’s perception of reality and can lead them to doubt their own experiences and feelings. Identifying gaslighting involves recognizing patterns of manipulation, distortion of facts, and invalidation of emotions. By raising awareness and educating ourselves and others about gaslighting, we can empower individuals to recognize and resist this harmful behavior.
Gas lighting makes people doubt themselves, their perceptions and their decisions. Gas lighting is an ugly weapon in coercive control. When someone distorts obvious facts to blame you for your conduct toward them, they are gas lighting you. When they fail to acknowledged the harm you suffered, whether they caused that harm or not, they are gas lighting you. Beware of these red flags. You will not change them. You are better off without them.
I planned a pregnancy, via fertility pills based off a man (US Navy Chief Petty Officer) who came to my country to work in the US Embassy perpetrating himself as a single divorced man. Only to find out he really is married. and he knew that my moral stand would be to never sleep or have an affair with a married man. He has since left my country and refuses to pay child support for the twin babies i now have. I am currently pursuing a child support and dna case in florida, but i would like to know if there is a legal ground for me to sue him for deceiving me into becoming pregnant and sleeping with him under false circumstances. I already had 2 children via c-section and i kept saying my 3rd child, will be with a man who wanted to be married. I feel by his purposeful deception he has robbed me of giving any husband i could have a baby. and he says to me , so what many people have babies for married men, you not the first and you wont be the last. he says to me that had he not lied i never wouldve gotten my daughter. he accepts no responsibility for his actions and shows no remorse.
I feel violated and I need to feel justice for what was done to me and what I feel was taken from not just me, but my children also.
Stacie- I’m so sorry to hear of this horrific fraud that led you and your children to this gross misfortune. This man has absolutely no morals and it’s a clear case that underscores the egregious harm of this conduct. Please contact me at Info@ConsentAwareness.net to discuss possible actions you can take.
I was wondering if there is a way to contact you and pick your brain and knowledge on this subject.
Absolutely. You can reach me directly at Info@ConsentAwareness.Net.
I wanted to share what I saw on the news here in my area – Austin, Texas. A man came on the news and described how he had undergone some serious health problems due to an aneurysm that required skull surgery and harsh medications. These medications damaged his teeth, so when he was able he sought the help of a dentist here in central Austin. The dental assistant did the required molds for his new dentures and later the dentist came in. The dentist talked with him and eventually asked him how much weight he had lost, and he replied about 30lbs. Much to his horror the dentist then put his hand under his pants and underwear fondling his genitals. The man (Joshua McBride) who is speaking out about it went and filed a claim with the State Board of Dental Examiners and was told there was nothing he could do. He then went to the Texas Association Against Sexually Assault, and was told in Texas it is not a Felony, and holds the same as a traffic ticket because there was no penetration. But has Texas finally seen the light? Maybe there is some progress in my state It seems with a vote of 31-0 the Texas Senate approved a bill that would create a new crime – indecent assault, that includes jail time for groping and unwanted sexual contact. Bill 194 next goes to the House. Under current Texas law similar acts are a fine-only offense with a maximum penalty of just $500. SB 194 would make indecent assault a Class A misdemeanor with the possibility of up to one year in jail and a $4,000 fine. The Bill covers groping/rubbing the genitals of another person, trying to or removing the clothing covering someone’s private parts, causing someone to touch any fluids of another person, and would also allow the judge to issue a protective order for victims of indecent assault. This is good progress for Texas because we are so far behind on sexual assault issues. I hope the Bill passes, so hopefully my state can progress to see that deception of any kind to obtain sex is sexual assault as well and harmful to victims. It’s a start!
Thanks for the information Nina.
We have boots on the ground working to create reforms in TX. Would you like to join us?
I’ll research this case and write a post about it shortly. The Texas penal code fails to apply the definition of consent to sexual assault. We aim to change that!
Hello Joyce, You are a blessing and a Godsend. I am thankful for the work you are doing and I know it cannot be easy. Thank you for taking your tragic situation and turning it around for the good of others. As Napoleon Hill says we are to look for the “Seed of an equivalent benefit” in every dismal situation. Not that you would ever find a justification for abuse but you used that horrific episode in your life for the good of others. Your wisdom and courage are admirable. Yes, courage, I have read some of the comments that are mean-spirited and your responses are always poignant and courageous. You are my hero. I can only hope that as I heal I will emerge with your spirit and tenacity. I am planning to send you another email soon with some specifics of my story. I would like you to consider helping to make some changes in the State of Alaska that has the worst stats for sexual exploitation of women in the nation. I am so proud of you and thankful that you are here. You are an answer to prayer. I purchased your amazing book last night, “Combating Romance Scams.” I have not finished it but you described me to the letter. A life of service. The clinical aspect of the book is so helpful. You truly did a magnificent job with the book. So very thorough giving a foundation of what happened on a biological, psychological and clinical level. I am amazed and for such a reasonable price. You are a blessing. All I can say is well done and thank you. May God bless and protect you and open every door necessary for this great work you are doing to flourish. I am also thankful that New York has recognized your contribution to the State.
@suziespells – Can’t thank you enough for your words of encouragement! I’d never heard your quotation by Napoleon Hill, but it’s so true. I believe that people who have suffered wrongs, particularly ones that are virtually unknown, have a responsibility to raise awareness. If not, how can we possibly expect society to change?
I’d sincerely appreciate your providing a comment on the Amazon book page. Those comments and ratings help encourage others, and we need the world to understand how debilitating it is to be scammed for sex.
Lastly- I’d be honored to hear the details of your story. If you’d like, I can create a “CAD Tale” post with it that will help others understand. I always keep the identity of both the survivor and the offender private, unless you have engaged in legal action which places information about the offender in the public domain. Regardless that your post will be anonymous, I publish nothing without the approval of the sender.
Wishing you a speedy recovery from your ordeal.
I agree with everything you say here. Discovering Joyce Short’s story, this site and reading her book has given me the courage, and with advice from Joyce and my solicitor, to take a safe course of action to raise awareness. Hopefully my article will be published in the national UK press soon. Thank you Joyce,
I’m honored by your message and your trust. Thank you.
Hi, you have done great work with this cause. Just wanted to touch base and let you know that there is a registry of sorts, womansavers.com on which people can report their experiences with deceptive partners. An example is below.
Saw “The Wrong Man” on Buzzfeed and was a very compelling story. I’ve often thought that sometimes, the best way to get the change you want (consent laws) when fools won’t budge is to play on the fools fears.
***Want gun control – start a program to give AR-15’s to black people.
***Want laws for a woman’s autonomy over her body – start a campaign of mandatory organ harvesting regardless of organ donation status.
***Want laws on informed consent / rape by fraud – advertise this as a way to prosecute cross-dressers / transvestites who lure unknowing males into romantic encounters.
Use the Dunning-Kruger effect to your advantage!
@ 2 Daughters- I understand your point… problem is, our law-makers don’t really want to prosecute cross-dressers who lure unknowing males into romantic encounters.
Just such a case took place not long ago. The person who was raped by a transvestite was so outraged at what had taken place, he completely lost it, and he stabbed the man who’d raped him to death. He was convicted of murder and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole, not even manslaughter.
Many in the LGBTQ community think divulging your birth gender should not be required in sexual conduct. They are a significant lobbying force to prevent deception from being a form of sexual assault.
Joyce: As a 65 year old white male with a wife and daughter, I think you are asking some tough questions with difficult issues to define and not-so-easy answers. It is tough to define the difference between a “little white lie” to put yourself in a better light as a bed partner, and a full-out lie that modifies reality. If you were to somehow break down your blog into sections, it might help. Otherwise, some rants on the blog take up so much attention that the basic ideas are lost. Finding some way to eliminate some of the emotional “noise” might help. Bob
Good lord, you’re a nutter. The courts have continually struck down the idea that lying about occupation,income, marital status viciates consent, so you’re trying to get it written into law. The only thing that viciates consents is if a person lies about their health, specifically a STD, as that lie can jeopardize your physical health.
Your knowledge of the law is very poor. For fraud to happen, their must be some attempt to take money from you.
Nope- You’re simply incorrect and narrow in your interpretation of the law. The courts have not struck down cases by specific lies. You are poorly informed.
All rape jeopardizes your health- how foolish that you don’t comprehend. You’re displaying a personal lack of emotional empathy. And you’re failing to differentiate between your assumptions and the facts.
yes, all rape by any kind of lie or fraud is a health concern to the well being of a person, not just physical health.
I totally agree
Ms Short you are so nice…So sorry you get Trolls on here 🙁
Hugh, Look up Narcissist, Personality Disorders, Psychopath. These are real words in the dictionary 🙂 They are real crimes of sick people who victimize others 🙂 If you have issues most likely you have been doing this to people yourself and you are just trying to justify that it is okay. That is just how I see it. Emotional abuse is a valid court case of civil law suites. So eat crow and bye bye. Lying and with- holding information, when asked is a way of taking a persons rights away of being in a romantic relationship for years, based on lies. A Narcissist living a double life. Having sex with multiple partners. That is putting all of us at risk. Plus they do not show you their STD test. They mind fuck you of double talking. They grooms you like a child molester grooms their victims in gaining their trust. They use brain washing emotional tactics to mess with your emotions. It is all a fun game for them to hurt people with INTENT…THAT IS THE KEY WORD INTENT Ms. Short can we do ~Me Too~ on here…
Please do! And thanks for your words of wisdom!
You are one of my Hero’s:) I mentioned on I-Checkmates about, there is talk about doing a perpetrator list, of those that were victimized. Maybe a database to put them in and then match victims, who had been abused by the same man or women. Do you still do your list? I am so happy this has come to light. Maybe this will make these messed up people think twice of abusing anyone or to stop those who are doing it now. That they will finally have fear in them, of being called out. What do you think of the list that is being talked about? Google it. I am sure there are road blocks of this to happen. Being screened, privacy and many more things. BUT I WANT IT BAD!!!!! Till we meet some day soon, Be Well
Lists are only good when the information is verified. Anyone can make a claim, but not everyone can actually secure a judgement against a predator. The publisher of the list as well as the victim who posted the information could be sued.
I take names from victims, but I don’t use those names to promote a service. In fact, I don’t publish them. If someone asks me whether a persons name is on my list, I will tell them whether I’ve received it or not.
The list that I do publish is information about scum bags who have been charged through either criminal or civil court and a judgement has been rendered. This information is considered “public” information and the victim would not be risking a defamation claim by disclosing it. Never-the-less, I do not divulge the source of the information.
I encourage victims to bring their claims to court…. even small claims court. Once a judgement is established, that information can be posted.
What is the list? If there is that would be so awesome!
I’ll post information of offenders whose misdeeds were substantiated through a legal process. Their information is public record. If someone has a case in progress or a case that’s been tried, they should contact me with the information.
It’s rare that a victim could bring charges against an offender for rape by fraud or deception, but they could, and should, lodge a case for the recovery of damages due to emotional suffering, particularly if they need to undergo therapy in order to recover. States that have penal code that covers rape by fraud are Alabama, Tennessee, and Missouri. California will prosecute fraud in the factum cases.
Romance scammers frequently go after assets as well as sex. I’ll report the stories from victims who secure justice through the courts.
Love your comment ! I couldn’t agree with you and miss short more !
I’m a healing victim as well! I feel like I connected with your comment
Me too. My experience has completely destroyed my life. I’m still struggling with the PTSD but can think clearer and able to listen to the recordings I made. Not to “catch “ him or to protect myself. I didn’t even realize what was happening to me was illegal. I made them because the lies were making me feel like I was losing my mind. The recordings are mind blowing now that I’m healing and able to view it objectively. It’s frightening. If people don’t “get” how an otherwise smart, happy, healthy, good person can be a victim of this, they just need to listen to these recordings. They’re dealing with a master manipulator and it happens over years so the victim is a mere version of who she was when she met him. Precisely their goal and all intentional. I think it’s a telling coincidence that June 15th is my birthday. Curious how you picked that date. Thanks for all your hard work and how can I get involved to have the most impact. I feel like if a judge or the public knew my story, with all the proof attached, they would look at this type of rape differently and throw him in jail and make him pay for my therapy. I tried to go to a therapy session about a year ago and the session alone was so traumatizing just trying to explain , futily, what happened to me, that I never went back. It made me realize how debilitating the damage has been. I’ve kept my job but that’s about it. I used to have a full, happy, healthy life. Thank you, Kim.
Unfortunately, it’s unlikely that the laws of your state make his behavior a criminal offense at this time. I’m trying to change that, and indeed, you can help!
I’ve recently made a TEDx Talk that introduces language for a new law that every state can and should adopt. Currently, two legislators are working together to pass this law in their states. The more states get on board, the more significant this change will be, so here’s what I suggest…..
Watch my TEDx Talk: “When Yes Means No, the Truth About Consent.”
The address is: http://bit.ly/2MvLpJp. Make sure you share it with everyone you know. And please make a comment on the YouTube channel.
Write to me at Consent.Awareness@yahoo.com, Together, we can plan out how to get the legislators in your state on board.
Wishing you strength and a speedy recovery from your ordeal.
#metoo …. my 2-cent is that unless you are talking to an empath, else only the victims can understand what another victims have gone through …. The Law is definitely still weak in this area as there are many shades of grey. Until a capable law-maker wants to conquer the challenge, there are still many work to do …. I’d rather the predator steal my $, be it thousand $, than my emotion, peace & mind. However, the police said I couldn’t file the report for this as I somewhat “agreed”. I’m not the only victim of this predator who has multiple faces. I was naive and in a safe environment, and I ignored all the signals/signs/illogical details about the predator. Hence, looking forward, awareness and education on this issue is necessary.
You’ve mentioned an important point… law enforcement confuses “agreed” and “consented.” Agreement can take many forms, consent, assent, and acquiescence. Agreeing under force, duress or deception fail to qualify as consent.
Nope- You’re simply incorrect about every statement you’ve made, including lying about STDs. While it’s punishable in some states, it’s not punishable in all states.
You need to do your research. God knows, I’ve given you enough information, but you continue to be blind.
Fraud does not merely apply to money. Deception applies in all things, including sex. While some states ignorantly cherry pick specific lies, others have blanket prohibitions against all types of lies. We need states to standardize all lying so that society can be protected.
Cherry picking lies is like cherry picking what weapon someone used to kill you. No matter what lie the person used to sexually assault you, undermine your self determination over your reproductive organs, they’ve defrauded you of sex. They’ve sexually assaulted, not seduced you. So cut out your lying and have sex with people who want you for who you are…… but that’s likely to be a problem for you, and why you conveniently don’t “get it.”
The notion that courts have struck down the notion that lying to get sex is false. There has yet to be a bill written well enough to get passed into law is the current reality. Only just recently did they pass a law in Maryland declaring that rape by itself is a crime (vs. rape paired with battering).
If someone lies to procure money it’s very simply an act of fraud. Lying to procure sex is far more personal, far more detrimental, and has long lasting damage that may never be recovered from. It’s only a matter of time.
Actually, your understanding of the law is wrong. Fraud doesn’t have a “money” element. Fraud is an intentional act/falsehood done with the intent to induce the other person into action.
And while we are talking about lack of knowledge for the law, you don’t seem to u derstand that consent rmust be informed under EVERY area of the law but rape. Why should rape be different?
You should read more. Her knowledge is intact.
I think the definition of fraud has not been well defined. Fraud is any intentional action to gain benefit from others. Fraud isnt just when money is involved. For example, if I gave you a rock and call it diamond to exchange it for your car. Is that a fraud?
Here’s the definition for consent that everyone attending law school learns in “Fraud 101.”
1. You deceive
2. You know you’re deceiving
3. You intend for your victim to believe your deceit
4. Your victim believes your deceit
5. You harm them based on their belief of your deceit.
Lying is not a crime. Lying to harm someone is a crime.
It’s not rocket science.
I am sure most everybody would agree that being raped, no matter how, would excuse the victim from violent response – if someone rapes you, it is likely ok to use “deadly force” against that person. This should include rape-by-fraud, no?
And if so, then this is a travesty and miscarriage of justice, possibly because in this case the victim was male? :http://nypost.com/2017/07/24/man-sentenced-for-stabbing-date-119-times-after-learning-shes-trans/
Good morning James. I understand and respect your thinking. However, the use of “deadly force” is very well-defined within each state. In Oklahoma, the Self Defense Act is VERY CLEAR in what the law allows and is listed below, as well as the url where I retrieved the information. Part J, Sub-parts 1., 2., and 3. show the definitions of “dwelling”, “residence”, and “vehicle”.
TITLE 21 § 1289.25 PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST INTRUDER
A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute
safety within their own homes or places of business.
B. A person or a owner, manager or employee of a business is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of
imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is
intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully
entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or a place of
business, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that
person from the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business; and
2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or
unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
C. The presumption set forth in subsection B of this section does not apply if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the
dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not a protective
order from domestic violence in effect or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that
2. The person or persons sought to be removed are children or grandchildren, or are otherwise in the lawful
custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
3. The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling,
residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business to further an unlawful activity.
D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has
a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force,
including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily
harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
E. A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle of
another person, or a place of business is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act
involving force or violence.38
F. A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is
justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force.
As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes charging or prosecuting the defendant.
G. A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force, but the law
enforcement agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause
that the force that was used was unlawful.
H. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses
incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant
is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection F of this section.
I. The provisions of this section and the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall not be construed to
require any person using a pistol pursuant to the provisions of this section to be licensed in any manner.
J. As used in this section:
1. “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the
building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including
a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people;
2. “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting
as an invited guest; and
3. “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport
people or property.
I retrieved the Oklahoma Self Defense Act from the following url: https://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA_LAW_BOOK.pdf
A) I don’t see “rape” anywhere in the response, and more importantly,
B) You cited Oklahoma law – the act that I referenced took place in Missouri.
Are you a defense attorney? DA? Judge? Public prosecutor?
I was replying to the “deadly force” comment portion of the post. I also said “the use of “deadly force” is very well-defined within each state.” I put in Oklahoma because that is where I live. It is my understanding that “great bodily harm” falls under the purvue of “rape”. I can only assume that in Missouri “serious physical injury” as listed in the below statute would also apply to rape. The Missouri statute is listed below. No, I am not a defense attorney, a DA, a Judge, or a Public Prosecutor, but I am a Ph.D., a researcher, and spent 20 years as a First Responder. I do not make claims of being any of the aforementioned and do not give out legal advice as it is not my job to do so. I was simply making a comment on the “use of deadly force”.
Missouri Revised Statutes
Defense of Justification
563.011. As used in this chapter the following terms shall mean:
(1) “Deadly force”, physical force which the actor uses with the purpose of causing or which he or she knows to create a substantial risk of causing death or serious physical injury;
(2) “Dwelling”, any building, inhabitable structure, or conveyance of any kind, whether the building, inhabitable structure, or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night;
(3) “Forcible felony”, any felony involving the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual, including but not limited to murder, robbery, burglary, arson, kidnapping, assault, and any forcible sexual offense;
(4) “Premises”, includes any building, inhabitable structure and any real property;
(5) “Private person”, any person other than a law enforcement officer;
(6) “Private property”, any real property in this state that is privately owned or leased;
(7) “Remain after unlawfully entering”, to remain in or upon premises after unlawfully entering as defined in this section;
(8) “Residence”, a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest;
(9) “Unlawfully enter”, a person unlawfully enters in or upon premises or private property when he or she enters such premises or private property and is not licensed or privileged to do so. A person who, regardless of his or her purpose, enters in or upon private property or premises that are at the time open to the public does so with license unless he or she defies a lawful order not to enter, personally communicated to him or her by the owner of such premises or by another authorized person. A license to enter in a building that is only partly open to the public is not a license to enter in that part of the building that is not open to the public.
(L. 1977 S.B. 60, A.L. 2007 S.B. 62 & 41, A.L. 2010 H.B. 1692, et al.)
Also, I found the Missouri Statutes at http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/chapters/chapText563.html
Hello Joyce. The Narcissist I was in a relationship with wore me down until I tried to kill myself three times. When he finally left he sent me a text encouraging me to end it all. This was a respected businessman, a pillar of local society and a psychopathic liar and cheat who left me traumatised and too ill to work or do much apart from survive. My life and vitality have gone as has my money, home and business and he is responsible. He now has a handful of new victims as well as his wife of 40 years. I did everything to get the police to see that what he had done was nothing short of attempted murder but they treated me as thought I was an overwrought lovestruck girl (I’m 50). He, and others like him, should be punished. My life has been taken from me and I am left with horrendous PTSD 24 hours a day whilst he roams around freely. I wish you well my angel and I will read your book.Bless you. x
I hear your pain! You fell into the path of a predator, and unfortunately, there is virtually no justice. They’re accomplished at driving people to the bottom of despair.
I’m happy to hear that your attempts at ending your life did not succeed. I know it’s difficult to face the invalidation you receive from the authorities, and often, even from your support network. I recommend that you look for a therapist who is familiar with character disorder who can help you pick up the pieces and put your life back together.
You are in my prayers.
Hi, I’m in the same boat. I just wrote a reply dated Sept 1,2018. I hope you read it. I know exactly how you feel and what you’re talking about. It’s taken me almost 15 months since my last contact with him to gather myself enough enough to listen to the recording I made….from the gaslighting…. I think they can help tremendously so those policemen get what’s really happening and how destructive they are. All the tactics they use to destroy are recorded. Im so sorry you had to go through that. Kim.
Kim- It’s possible, even if you don’t have a criminal case against him, you may have sufficient proof for a civil case of emotional distress. Please contact me at Consent.Awareness@yahoo.com to discuss it further. I’ve advocated for several women who were victimized, turned away by the police, and who succeeded in their civil cases. Joyce
Hi Joyce, I emailed you last night. I hope you got it. Thanks, Kim.
Hi Kim- I did but it didn’t seem to go out. Sent it again this am. There’s a question in my response so LMK. Also the time will need to change because I won’t be around to speak with you this evening. Will tomorrow morning work for you?
Yes and apologies as I didn’t see this until now. I had emailed you instead so just ignore that! 🙂 Thanks, Kim.
What if someone is genetically a man, but has a female body. They should go to jail for duping someone into marrying them?
Whatever their gender issues are, they don’t have the right to hoodwink someone into sex. They should be honest and be with someone who accepts them for who they are.
I FELT VICTIM TO SAME ROMANCE SCAM, LUCKILY IT DIDN’T GET TOO FAR. I WAS SAVED BY A CYBER SERVICE INVESTIGATION TEAM. VERIFY EVERYBODY YOU MEET ONLINE BEFORE EVER SENDING THEM MONEY. THEIR CONTACT ABOVE. SAVE YOUR VALUABLE TIME AND MONEY.
Hi Joyce is there a way to contact you.
I’m happy to hear from people directly.
You can reach me by writing to me at StopRomanceScams@yahoo.com.
I sent it to Consent.Awareness@ yahoo.com.
Hoping you received it?
Interested in what you thought of the following scenarios and whether they would be rape by fraud:
A. an average looking man says to a woman wanna go for a ride in my ferrari back my hotel. She goes, they have sex. She contacts him days later to find out he was a janitor that hired the car and it was not his.
B. A guy and a girl have been dating a few times. She goes back to his place. Things get heavy. She holds him up and asks – do you love me. He says yes. They have sex and she never hears from him again.
C. A girl is really into some particular author/school of thought. A guy feigns interests in said author/philosophy to get her interested and they have sex. She finds out later he has never read any of the books.
D. A woman tells a guy she is a surgeon. He is impressed. They have sex. He was planning to move in with her. She doesnt tell him she was deregistersd and cant practice due to misuse of hospital medications.
E. A guy and a girl have sex, he doesnt ask if she is married, but she is, and not even separated. They guy finds out about the husband later.
F. A girl tells an attractive guy that she is leaving her husband. The guy and the girl have sex. She had no intention of leaving her husband and doesnt.
G. A christian guy and a girl date which leads to sex. She omitts to tell him her last relationship was with another woman. She knew he would never have been with her if she had of told him.
H Two lesbians date. They quiz each other about their sexual past. they both say they have only had a couple of sexual partners. One has lied and has had many many more in ways that would have shocked the other.
Id be interested in knowing how you would suggest to literally draw the line legally as all misrepresentations including by ommission should not be actionable but that some should be.
Where would the line be drawn for you in the above cases?
All of them are sexual assault. Only one even comes close to be a case that could be prosecuted.
Just because someone tells you a lie for sex does not mean the police or Prosecutor can step in. In order to do so, the victim would have to have a REASONABLE basis for belief, and PROOF that the lie actually took place.
No cases in which the victim failed to conduct “reasonable due-diligence, and significant proof existed” could be tried in a court of law.
Hi Ms. Short…Bravo again on all the great work you are doing and it is coming together. I recently got your book and reading it 🙂 I am just passing this on. February is the love month. Many of us who have been victims of Narc. Sociopaths abuse so on and alone are very vulnerable. The abuser may come around at this time too. I have been single for awhile now. For the past 14months I have been on a steady healing path. I for some reason decided to join a dating site. Of course my guard is up. Today on my on-line Narc. support group, someone shared this youtube video.
I hope it is okay and if anyone else has safety tips and tools to help us be smart and give to ourselves. WE maybe okay, but then there can be bad days or triggers that bring up emotions of past abuse. We need to have self-love and to help each other. Kindness to all
Narcissist Online Dating Playground Revisited
Thanks for sharing. He’s reinforcing everything I’ve said for years! Nice to hear it from a male!
I’m constantly defamed as a “feminazi” and other colorful names. It’s time people come to grips with reality! On-line dating is a haven for fraud. There are so many ways to meet people, face to face, and learn what they’re about. And even when you meet them face-to-face, jumping into bed with someone you just met is dangerous!
My post E-Dating Alternatives, A to Z, will help folks who’d love to meet someone they have things in common with. Here’s the link: https://rapebyfraud.com/2016/09/25/e-dating-alternatives-a-to-z/
Resorting to immsture name calling and vitriole does nothing to strengthen your argument. Your extremely dysregulated emotional response makes YOU sound like a predator. Oh wait…an immature predator who projects given an inability to write thoughtfully about these issues. Grow up and get off this site.
Thanks Kat-Some comments are simply too disgusting to remain. As you can see, his bit the dust.
LOOKING FOR VICTIMS….HOW MANY….HOW MANY YEARS….THE CRIMINAL DOES EVERYTHING WITH INTENT FOR YEARS….NOT JUST A FEW TIMES…..Narc. Sociopaths Abusers does everything with intent…Example-Bullying young adults teens with out touching them, then they are so emotionally devastated they commit suicide and now on live stream FB….Hello….mental abuse over and over is abuse!!!
Leo, I completely understand the questioning, but let’s please not go overboard here as there are thousands of women and children (and yes, some men) being subjected to abuse, fraud, and trickery by very skilled predators who literally make their living in this manner. While I also understand that your concerns may be regarding what some might consider a “white lie” on a one-night-stand issue, those are far from what is really going on.
When a person spends over 4 years lying and extorting in EVERY aspect to obtain sex, money, and power, it should be a crime. For example: A man claims to be a Navy SEAL, claims to have deployed 19 times in 24 years to combat zones as a Sniper for a SEAL team, claims to have PTSD, claims to be disabled with PTSD, claims to be part of combat groups, claims to be unmarried, claims to be intent on marriage to many targets, wears different wedding rings for each person he is involved with, begins spreading STIs to different people, gets involved with families of his prey, and uses this and much more to obtain sex and money……THIS SHOULD BE A CRIME!!!!!
And yes, this and much more happened to me. Now, before you go off on what a naive idiot I am, let me tell you that I did a background check on this man. He gave just enough truth to make a background check plausible, which by the way, only gives you possible matches to address, work, phone numbers, potential family members, etc.
There is a big difference between someone who lies about the amount of money they make, whether a vehicle is rented for a date to impress or not, etc. When someone can PROVE beyond any shadow of a doubt that they lied to obtain sex and money, not to mention, defrauding elderly parents of their victims to receive money, this SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A CRIME!!!!!
Yes, I’ve had relationships that did not work out and I am NOT, let me repeat NOT stating that it was fraud. Disagreements on how a relationship ends, if it is a “Real” relationship, should NOT constitute a crime. However, those like mine and numerous other women’s (and some men), should be a crime.
Yes, I do agree with Ms. Short that all are some form of assault as lying to get laid is not giving the intended target a reasonable decision-making process, but as she said below, only one even comes close to a case that could be prosecuted.
As someone who has actually been physically sexually violated and has been actually traumatised by it, and has also suffered emotional abuse, go fuck yourselves. seriously. This is horse shit. Someone told you they were single when they were actually married? Holy shit. They must be a psychopathic narcissist. Only explanation. And of course it’s rape, how else would you deal with the situation other than playing the victim in the most extreme way possible? Recovering from the emotional damage and actually moving on with your life? Fuck no. We have to get these people arrested for rape, ruin the rest of their lives so they can never get a job again because they’re on the sex offender register. Good thing that is, because everyone who lies about that MUST be a malignant sociopath, only explanation for cheating! Totally not something regular people do. What evil people! Never mind the wife of this person who, when they find out, will be more emotionally traumatised and betrayed, as well as having to go through an expensive divorce and have her life ruined! It’s all about you isn’t it? You’re so traumatised because someone had sex with you without telling you their original hair colour was brown. What a fucking narcissist. Christ. There are actual rape victims out here, and you’re using the word and trivialising it to make yourself the victim of a slightly shit situation. Gotta make sure you hurt the person that hurt you by ruining their lives, it’s only fair right?
Sorry but you are the one that doesn’t understand what you are talking about. You should research the subject first before inserting foot in mouth. I suggest you look into Dr. Robert Hare, Dr. Mary Ellen O’Toole, Patricia Falk and Dr. Michael Fox to name a few. Joyce isn’t making this up – she did the research. Also saying that the victim of this type of exploitation did not suffer is just wrong, wrong, wrong! Some can end up with PTSD while others have committed suicide, some with health conditions can be so deeply affected that they have died from it. It is not up to you to decide who can handle what, it is up to the individual.
Probably half the female population would be in jail for rape. I have never heard one woman, family or otherwise truthfully state her sexual history (which would determine my consent to have sex with them/her) rarely if ever. That class of female would be SEX OFFENDERS. How about those who tell a guy they are “pregnant” to get a marriage proposal? Or that a child who isn’t, belongs to a man to get him to maintain a (sexual and financial) relationship with them or just to steal his money (child support). Trans men/woman who do not disclose? When I see those addressed with same Sexual Assault penalties then I might stop to listen to “rape by fraud”. But normally woman stop dead in their tracks when THEY will be held accountable for things they do in mass.
Sooo? If that’s the case, then why would you oppose this law? It’s gender neutral.
Lies that undermine your consent in order to induce sex are and should be a crime.
The lies that would actually land you in jail are up to the state, the judge and the jury to determine. You’d need significant proof that the offender lied like a falsified medical report that states that she’s pregnant. Without that, you could not prove that you had a reasonable basis for your belief that she is. But if she forged a document to get you to have sex with her….. absolutely, it’s sexual assault by fraud.
I’ve already said, in no uncertain terms, that’s transgender folks should disclose BEFORE they have sex. That works both ways. You obviously have not read either my book or this blog so I’m not going to waste any further time with you unless and until you do.
No, I have not read the fullness of your blog, nor have I read your book. That’s why I left a caveat that I could agree if those things were coded into the law. I hear a lot of lip service to gender neutral but rarely see any implementation. Since Woman=victim in most discourses and application of laws. My comment was localized to THIS blog post because it inspired me to comment (good work).
Further, in general, I am afraid of giving government yet more power and reasons to put people behind bars. Already too many to count. I believe we are trying to legislate to protect promiscuity in most of these instances. Most of “rapefraud” is not possible on its face when one takes time to do due diligence (learn and wait) a good period of time before having sex and I don’t like laws that protect and coddle ignorance, idiocy, and potentially encourage moral hazards. Especially, where these things can be accomplished through private contracts between consenting parties. Affidavits, non disclosures, etc. Make a financial penalty (stiff as you will)! Instead of per-nuptuals have something similar when you date. Someone not willing to warrant certain facts obviously has lied on those facts. You accomplish perjury (affidavit) and extra financial penalty as well as privacy from potential private disclosures or sex tapes etc.
No law change necessary since crafting a fair law is nearly impossible and gives yet more power to abuse to government.
Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, particularly when the crime is as serious as rape. We don’t fail to enact laws to protect society from murderers and thieves even though more of them are male that female. Why on earth should we fail to protect society from rapists even though more are male than female?
Your assumption that the law will be biased towards women is an inappropriate impression. The language of the law is very specific that both men and women are susceptible to rape and both men and women should be protected equally. It’s up to society to intervene when inappropriate use is made of legislation. If men are silent about the harm they’re dealt, we as a society should champion the laws that will prevent them from being harmed none-the-less. Only by doing so can we bring about recognition, change and equitable adherence to the law.
Rapists should be behind bars. And your assumption that “due diligence” is the answer is blatantly naive. You obviously do not understand what scam artists do to treacherously trick people.
Crafting a fair law is not only possible, but probable.
Women are inherently naive and gullible. That’s why in times past, women’s choices of men had to be approved by a father or responsible male relative. It was for the protection of the woman. This is why women waited until marriage, or at least the proposal thereof, in order to have sex with a man. If those 2 things were still around, most of these “rape by fraud” cases wouldn’t exist.
But if women, especially young women, think they are smart enough and capable enough to choose their own men, let them do it. But there are risks and consequences. It used to be that if a man was good, honest and decent and hard working, he could get a wife.
Today, none of those things will get you success with women. Did you know that men with “Dark Triad” personality traits are more sexually successful with women as evidenced by their higher number of lifetime sexual partners?
What this says is that the closer a man is to a psychopath, the more he is desired by women. These are the sorts of men who are the subjects of this website.
Here’s the million dollar question:
If acting as close as I can to a psychopath will get one sexually rewarded by women, but acting like a good guy will get one forced into celibacy, why shouldn’t a man act like a psychopath?
Psychopaths don’t “act” like psychopaths to attract women. They act like nice guys. They trick the woman into thinking they have decent moral character.
The virginity of a female child was a commodity. That, and not the gullibility or naivete of the female, was why fathers basically sold their child to the highest bidder.
I research narcissism, sociopathy and psychopathy often. I know who the people you referenced are, I even speak to people who have those disorders. You must be referring to the fact that they have false personalities and therefore have to mirror the personalities of the people around them, just CONSENTING to have sex with one of these people is not automatically fucking rape, piss off. Unbelievably, regular people can do shitty things,I know, you’re not a fucking magical special snowflake just because you can feel empathy. I know what I’m talking about. If you want to commit suicide because someone you dated was married instead of single, that still doesn’t mean it should be considered a crime. I’d get it if someone online made you believe that they were in love with you and then scammed you into giving them all your money, but if you have sex with someone in real life and CONSENTED to it, IT IS NOT FUCKING RAPE. As someone who has been in a relationship with a narcissist, yes it was shit, yeah I suffered with mental health issues, still doesn’t fucking mean he should go to jail for having a disorder, and it also does not mean that just because you slept with someone who said their natural hair colour is blonde when it’s actually brown should be considered a rapist. Fuck off, fuck off, fuck off. Shitty things happen to people every day, much worse shit will happen to you, your close family will die, you might get cancer, etc. Learn to deal with pain instead of permanently keeping yourself in a state of victimhood when it comes to small things like someone pretending to be wonderful when they’re actually an asshole just to sleep with you a couple of times.. If you can’t learn to do that, that’s not anyone else’s fucking issue.
If you have an issue with the years of research done by these professionals, you should contact them. I’m sure you have the credentials to get them to change their research, right? Secondly, I have not seen anywhere on here where Joyce has said people should go to jail for dying their hair, wearing makeup, shoe lifts, etc….and I do not believe they should either. The term “rape” has been discussed here too and there are plenty of opinions on here about it. I personally am not comfortable with it and would lean more towards sexual misconduct with restitution for any monies lost due to lies or a scam paid back. What is up with all your cussing? Makes you look bad!
My new book advocates for a fine that will enable victims to seek the treatment needed to recover as well as education about sexual “consent” for the offender.
Like you, I”d prefer to use the term “sexual misconduct” for this crime. But it’s up to the “codes” in the individual states
A fine is a perfect idea – thanks for pointing that out because some do need therapy afterwards, and for recognizing the need for education about consent. I have the deepest admiration for your efforts and perseverance for this cause.😀
Problem with a blog is that people jump into the conversation in one specific area of discussion without seeing the big picture or hearing previously expressed points. I’ll shortly be releasing my new Book, “Combating Romance Scams, Why Lying to Get Laid Is a Crime!” to take people through the concept in its entirely. I hope it will help get the message across more completely!
The hell are you talking about? What does this have to do with the researchers? When did I say I have issues with the research? I stated that I STUDIED the research from these professionals, how hard is that to understand? Doesn’t take an idiot to figure that out. My God. Cussing makes me look bad? So does thinking someone should have their entire life ruined for lying to get someone into bed.
Again, no one has ever said that someone should have their life ruined. But, you seem to show no sympathy for the other party in this. And you seem to ne saying that two people had sex, had a good time, so no harm no foul, right? That is not always the case as their are so many different situations and scams out there. Just saying your cussing came across as angry and it’s hard to have a conversation like that.
Lying to get someone to have sex can destroy their life. What makes you think the offender should not bear responsibility? You minimize the harm that’s being done to the victim!
Why the hell are you putting words in my mouth, things that I didn’t even remotely say, just to push your own agenda. Keep ignoring my argument and point statements that I didn’t even remotely make. Totally ignore the fact that I stated an idea shared by those researchers, which is people with those disorders have false personalities, just to keep this idea in your head that I’m a misinformed idiot simply because I disagree with you.
No one is talking a couple times and they are referring to severe trauma to the victim. I’ve had my share of jerks or relationships gone bad and it never derailed me or made me think their needed to be a law. This is different. There’s no relationship….the appearance of a “relationship” is the cover to commit the crime in plain sight….the sex by deception or rape or what ever you want to call it. Mine went on for years and I was doing everything to ensure the “truth” and was extremely clear of my boundaries and that’s when the lies and manipulations and gaslighting and isolation and smearing kicked into high gear. He just became more skilled and covert causing way more damage. I’m not sure but I think being able to prove significant damage to the victim would be part of it too. I’m no expert and this is just my opinion and my personal experience. I can say wioyjout question, my life and myself were unrecognizable after it was over. And that’s with me doing all the “right” things to stop the cycle. Please try not to judge. I think it’s very hard to understand unless you’ve been through something like this.
And before people start saying “their” should be “there” and “myself” should be “ my self” and all the other typos, I’m aware but didn’t proof before I posted so if you could just focus on the intent of the message. I hope the current “me too” climate will help give this effort some momentum.
@Kim- So sorry to hear of the damage you faced. Seems you have a story that could help raise awareness. I’d be happy to publish a guest post if you’d like to write up what happened to you.
Attacking me or anyone on this blog with insults is surely not going to change our minds. But it will certainly show us your character…. or lack thereof.
I feel very badly that you were violently raped. But it does not give you the right to minimize the harm that is dealt to others who were raped in ways you were not. In fact, just last evening I spoke with a woman who’d been both date raped and raped by fraud. Her comment to me was that being date raped was easier to recover from. She had no established bond with the offender. He was a stranger to her. (He slipped something into her drink and pretended to “help” her home in a grossly compromised state.) But being raped by fraud undermined her trust by someone she knew and cared for. The offender betrayed her over and over again. It was even more difficult to recover from.
Most folks who’ve been violently raped understand that no one should be violated by rape by fraud. You are in the minority. And in fact this law is already spelled out in the penal code of a few states, and in other countries. But don’t be fooled, “consent” is required in every state, and “consent” does not occur when the person is tricked into sex.
Violent rape is an aggravated form of rape and the punishment for it is far more severe than rape by fraud. Never-the-less, violent rape is far from the only form of rape.
Violent rape undermines the victim’s self-determination over their reproductive organs with violence. Rape by fraud undermines the victim’s self-determination over their reproductive organs with deception. If there were not something uniquely exceptional about doing so, then what happened to you would simply be “assault,” not “rape.”
Your comments about hair color, etc. are not consistent with the the term “rape by fraud.” You should read more. BTW- his hair color was salt & pepper, and he did not lie about his hair color… it was one of his few truths. It did, however, enable him to claim he was considerably older than he actually was.
I never trivialized the harm the offender does to their spouse when they lie about their marital status. But you seem to trivialize the harm that they deal to the victim in embroiling them in this heinous act. The victim’s reproductive organs were unwittingly sucked into harming another person. How do you think this makes them feel?
If someone wants to cheat, they should be honest with the person they are dragging into the mix. Obviously, if they lie, they know the other person would not go along. They induce sex despite knowing that their victim would not consent. No, it’s not violent rape. Yes, it is rape.
When the hell did I say that violent rape is ok? Don’t put words in my mouth. The fact that you say I think violent rape is ok after you know I myself have been sexually abused shows YOUR character. I can insult you if I want, I am free to do so, just as you are free to insult me with bullshit like stating I think violent rape is ok. I don’t trivialise the pain it puts other people through, I often go on narcissist abuse forums and help the people on there who have been emotionally abused. You may not trivialise the harm it does to the ‘offender’ but you sure don’t seem to care, which is equally as bad. How do I think it makes them feel? By your logic, considering I’ve been both sexually abused and ‘raped by fraud’ from being in a relationship with a narcissist, isn’t that a completely dumb question to ask because I’ve been through that experience?
Where do you think I said that you believe violent rape is ok?
Joyce, from the mere fact you insinuate that I think violent rape isn’t bad, I can conclude you’re a vile bitch. What a thing to say to someone who’s been through that experience. How do you think being told that makes ME feel? From what I gather, what you want is for people to be arrested for mental disorders (narcissism, sociopathy, psychopathy) that they did not choose to have in the first place. Due to the fact that the people with these disorders do not have a true identity or personality, they have no choice but to mirror the personalities of the people around them, or fabricate one. Some of these people are completely unaware that they are doing so. Just admit you want people arrested for mental health disorders. How you feel about your shitty ex boyfriend shouldn’t dictate that these people automatically get arrested. Guess what, shitty people exist in the world. And you are one of them.
I never insinuated that you don’t think violent rape is a bad thing. Can’t begin to fathom where that conclusion came from.
Joyce never said that or insinuated in any way that you think or she thinks that violent rape is okay. If you read again and all the other posts, she actually says it’s worse while still using it to make a case for giving credibility to rape by fraud. I think maybe you misread or misunderstood.
And one last thing: absolutely FUCK YOU for saying I think violent rape isn’t a bad thing to a person who’s been through a similar experience. Absolutely FUCK YOU. You quite clearly do not care about how disgusting what you said was, I very rarely get triggered, but holy hell did that trigger me. I feel really upset and disgusted right now, how vile. You obviously have no sympathy for the fact that I went through that, if you did you wouldn’t have made that comment because you would have had the fucking shred of human decency to realise how upsetting that would be. No consideration for the pain I went through after that if you’re going to put such disgusting words in my mouth. Really shows your character, you only are about yourself.
What the hell- I have absolutely no idea where you get that I minimized the horror of violent rape. It’s simply not true. In fact, I’ve said many times on this blog that nothing compares to the horror of violent rape.
If you point to what you interpreted as my minimizing the impact of violent rape, I’d be happy to correct it.
“Most folks who’ve been violently raped understand that no one should be violated this way. You are in the minority.” As if I don’t understand how fucking horrific it is to deal with the effects of being sexually abused like that. As if I DON’T think that having something like that happen to you is terrible after going through a similar experience myself. Again, fuck you. Seriously. Also “carnal abuse by deceit”. Do you know what carnal abuse is? That’s child rape. “genital contact between a male and a female minor with or without penetration and with or without the consent of the female; broadly : rape especially of a female child.” You’re essentially equating someone lying about their income to help get someone into bed, to child rape. That’s beyond moronic.
You know what’s even MORE fucking insane? the fact that you want people who lie about their religion, the number of children they have, their education or even if they lie that they love dogs when they don’t, to be seen as rapists. That’s absolutely beyond.
For your understanding of Carnal Abuse: that’s one circumstance that applies. It’s not the only one.
WTH- The use of pronouns can be problematic, and I can see how you could misinterpret my sentence if you don’t relate to the context in which it was spoken.
Here’s the sentence: “Most folks who’ve been violently raped understand that no one should be violated “this” way.”
Since you were saying that recognizing rape by fraud as a crime some how minimizes the harm dealt to violently raped victims, “this” refers to “rape by fraud,” not violent rape. My position would be expressed as “this” while your opinion would be expressed as “that” when I speak.
I’ve gone back to change this sentence so you can grasp the meaning. I certainly didn’t mean to offend you. And I, likewise, find it offensive when you invalidate the harm dealt to victims of rape by fraud. Being a victim of one crime does not give you the right to invalidate a crime that happens to others.
Look, it’s pretty obvious to me what’s going on with you, Joyce. You got into a relationship with a narcissist. It was a terrible relationship. Your feelings got very hurt. You therefore decided to have a deep seated hatred for everyone with this disorder, and think that every narcissist, sociopath and psychopath in the world should be put in jail for crimes they didn’t even commit just because of having a disorder that they did not choose to have. You claim that they lie,and therefore they commit ‘rape’ and ‘carnal abuse’ which makes absolutely no sense, considering 1. the person they had sex with CONSENTED to the sex 2.In most of these cases, the CONSENTING partner was NOT a child. What you want, is 16% of the population (considering 1% of the population are believed to be psychopaths, 4% of the population are believed to be sociopaths, and 6% believed to be narcissists, 5% believed to be pathological/compulsive liars), and anyone else who ‘lies’ (I put it in quotation marks because lying is very subjective) into jail for fucking child rape, even though they never committed such a crime. Which, quite frankly, is fucking insane. In essence, you want people in jail for being different to you, and because you had one very bad experience with ONE person from this minority. You want people to be hated as much as child rapists for having disorders that, the majority of the time, where triggered in them because of horrific child abuse. All because you had one really shit relationship. Fucking insane.
It’s obvious you never read my book, and it’s also obvious that you make wild assumptions that have no connection with fact.
You are incorrect in both your concept of what happened to me, and your concept of “consent.” Consent is “knowledgeable and informed” agreement. Not simply agreement. Just because you agree to something does not mean you are consenting to it. It is absurd that you apply an erroneous definition of consent improperly and insist that you are correct.
It’s simple English, and it’s also the language and definition that’s used in penal code.
BTW- that “really shit relationship” you are referring to was a romance scam in which he lied about everything about himself. The man he pretended to be for 3.5 years was very different than who he actually was. And having a child with a sexual predator affects the rest of your life. There is no getting over it.
You don’t wake up one day and not have to deal with the fallout of giving birth to the product of rape.That man’s lies destroyed “family” for me and saddled me with considerable financial hardship as he abandoned his child with no child support for 17 years.
Yes, he’s a grotesque Narcissist. Yes, he’s a sexual predator. Yes, he is a deadbeat. And yes, rape by fraud commits severe hardship for the victims that should not go unpunished or unrecognized.
You haven’t read my book or my blog well enough to know that I do not support punishing rape by fraud the same as violent rape. But to pretend that sexual predators are not committing rape, and that there should be no justice for their victims is insensitive balderdash.
Being violently raped does not give you the privilege of dismissing harm when it happens to others.
What the Hell, I am so sorry this subject has brought up very upsetting feeling in you. I was a victim of a Narcissist. Who has been a predator on dating sites bars so on for over ten years. Many of his victims has found out about each other and have outed him. WE all have the same stories. He rotates us. They do crazy brain washing mind fuck things to us..Excuse my language. I just thought I was the other women. His own girlfriend lied to me, as OH he has done this before. Then she put the blame on us. WHEN in fact he has been doing this for years with many many women. Think of Charlie Manson and his harem of women. She is stays and aids him in doing this too. She does nothing to hold him accountable, as leave him!!! There is a big difference of someone who is doing cheating, then a predator who has INTENTIONS TO find the type of victims they have learned that works for them in feeding their addiction. They are not doing this for sex, they are doing this to seduce us with sex, then to have us wanting to do and be anything to them. Please do your research. Youtube or google (Knowing the Narcissist HG Tudor). He is a real Narcissist who is telling why they are missing humanness of connecting emotional and all the abuse they do. ABUSE is not just physical. If it was, THEN WHY ALL THE BULLYING TO poor young people with words, and they are committing suicide and on live face-book OUR society is loosing it’s humanness of what is right or wrong to do to people…Kindness to you and your journey
You’ve raised an important point. The harm in rape is not simply physical, it’s emotional. It cuts deeply into a person’s core sense of self.
There are people who can’t identify with emotional harm. WhatTheHell let us know early on that she could recognize harm when someone made off with assets, or when violence occurred, but she simply does not relate to the emotional harm that people suffer by being deprived of their self-determination over their reproductive organs.
If our criminal code dealt with the harm of rape, consistent with what she relates to, we would only have “assault” laws, not “rape” laws. Entering a victim’s reproductive organs without consent is more than assault, it’s sexual assault. But the violation of a person’s sexual sanctity seems lost on her.
Ok, what about a woman who married gay man or a transgender?? who had no idea and would have never even dated the bastard if she knew???
I am so very sorry for what you have been through, and for what you have suffered. However, before you attack me for something you do not agree with, understand that I have also been brutally raped when I was 17, which has nothing to do with what happened to me now. I am truly sorry for the trauma you experienced and while you may not agree with the trauma I experienced, it does not give you the right to be hateful. You have every right to disagree with someone including me, but it is unfair to assume you know my situation or anyone else’s situation without all the facts. I would never assume to understand what you have been through and attack you because I did not agree or did not have a complete understanding of your trauma. I was emotionally and physically abused by my predator as well as being lied to. It is not about my inability to get over it because he is a narcissistic sociopath. Again, I am sorry for what you’ve been through but please try to understand that there is more to a story than just one short-form post that gives only part of the whole story. Attacking anyone with a story because you do not agree is not ok. There are many forms of abuse and trauma. Someone below mentioned HG Tudor, and it might prove reasonable to read all of his books before determining what is valid for another person to feel after their trauma just because you believe it is somehow unfounded.
Does this mean that women that use make-up, straighten their hair, have implants are all rapist?
AudioRe, Just a question. Have you been with a woman, who has lied to you over and over. She pretended to be single, but had a long term relationship or married or a harem of men and a cell phone full of numbers of men and you had no clue. Did she do this for years with other men. Getting off on mentally playing with your emotions and beliefs. She got you to care for her and give to her emotional and psychical and then rip your heart out, throw it on the grown and stump all over it. Then put it back in you. Put a band-aid on it and start all over again grooming you to give to her the ways she wants you too. Some people in life have been the victims of brainwashing and mind control. As Hmmm Hitler, Charlie Manson Heavens Gates Jim Jones. These are predators who have been doing this for years to men or women. They get off on mentally playing mind fuck games. They have learned to be very good at it. Most are very sexual charged and use sex to seduce and keep their victims on a leash. So make up and mind fuck…So far about…have a good day.
My story just came from your words.
When you’re attracted to someone wearing makeup or a padded bra….. or even a man who wears a toupee and lifts in his shoes, you have the means to protect yourself from deception. If you decide that you don’t want to use it, that’s your choice.
No, because according to her opinion, ‘appearance enhancing lies’ don’t count. That’s because she wears makeup. So she’s a fucking hypocrite, and if we’re following the same logic without the hypocritical bullshit, a rapist.
Most women do wear makeup and actually some men. This goes back for centuries, i.e., Cleopatra. And men can have plastic surgery, wear lifts and a hairpiece to cover up his baldness. If a man does not like a woman with makeup he should not pursue that type. If a woman has a problem with fake hair, than she also has the right to not pursue this type. But none of the law mentioned on here is this frivolous – as mentioned hundreds of times on here.
Would you also consider men having sex with women who wear make up to be rape by fraud?
Just ask her to wash her face if what she looks like without makeup is important to you.
Does this include trans people not fully disclosing their birth gender? If so, I’m in! 😀 We have a right to know!
Hi Joyce I got your book. I am reading it now..Yes, back in the beginning of your day, it was had to find out what type of person you were dealing with. So sorry. (I believe your intentions with the laws passing is for the men or women who have scammed conned device many, not just someone who is going through a mid life crises of cheating here and there.) Yes??
Psychopathy Narcs. do everything with INTENT always. They seek out the type of victims like a predator. Vulnerable targets. Of divorcee, single mother, with medical disease that maybe end their life, on disability, or have wounds of self esteem issues. They feed their supply to seduce them into believing their victims are perfect just they way they are. Then they down the line start mentally mind fucking them, where they end up being a mental mess and brain washed. They use sex to connect with you, to make you believe you are soul-mates. ALL an act.
They are actors mirroring and learning how to act like a human-being of ethics, morals, integrity. These are the type of Narc. who are just looking for supply of feeding their egos USING people their supply as a drug. They get something from them. Then there are the ones scamming for money or fame or taking things from their victims. They scam like the sickos who scam senior out of money, which you hear on the news a lot. I do hear the word Narcissist a lot more. On TV shows, the cover of People magazine of bachelor on the show. Some people have traits of a Narcissist, but they are not full blow Narcissist. Anyways, I will e-mail you as you gave me your e-mail to look up someone.
Thank you kindly
Thanks for reaching out. And you’re quite correct. Sexual predators use sex as a device to gain access to their goal. Stirring up sexual brain chemistry enables them to defraud the victim of sex, money, immigration status or a host of other things.
Cheating on your husband or wife does not make you a sex offender. We no longer punish people for adultery. But lying to the victim, pretending you’re single when, indeed, you’re married, is a form of sexual assault. The victim has the right to know that you’re married BEFORE they engage in sex with you. If you lie to get sex you would otherwise not secure, you’ve assaulted the person, not seduced them. Cheating is unlikely to get you arrested for sexual assault by fraud. It’s difficult to prove the person lied. If; however, they created a false dating profile that claimed they were single when they were not, you’d have proof to prosecute the offender under the “catfish” law.
That’s utter nonsense. If lying to get sex is a crime, then how about we charge transgenders for failing to reveal their true identity? Maybe we should charge anyone that changes their mind about pursuing a relationship after the sex act is done. Perhaps we can extend the definition to criminalize women that sleep there way to the top at work. All this does is create more criminals and protects no one except for some poor sap’s feelings.
Actually, transgenders should disclose their sexual origin before they engage in sex with someone. If you don’t think non-disclosure of sex is important, tell it to Gayle Newland who is serving an 8 year sentence in the UK for her failure to do so.
Changing your mind is not a crime. Lies to get laid are. You ought to know the difference between the two. You’re just being silly.And you’re being silly about a serious issue… rape. I’m not laughing.
Joyce you are a dangerous person. Fabricating crimes from thin air. Why? woman scorned? always a bridesmaid never the bride? Saying yes to sex is yes to sex it doesn’t matter if you know their name, rank or friggin vagina size. Both men and women do this every minute of everyday. And dont you dare compare the UK to the U.S. The brits don’t even have a constitution. Parliament can make any insane law they want punishing innocent people for false crimes. But then europeans have a serf mentality. You should be ashamed of yourself for pushing this PC/Marxist garbage.
Thanks for proving how disturbed and out of touch with reality people’s concepts are about rape. You need to do considerably more reading, and grow some emotional empathy. Glad you’re not someone I know!
We need to make rape by deception a national law. You obviously have not been victimized. Continue to keep your head in the sand. We need to do what the UK has in place here in the US.
Unfortunately, the UK’s law is spotty at best. They’ll prosecute certain types of deception. They’re particularly focused on people who lie about their sex. But other types of deception don’t get much traction in the UK. Their criminal code needs a healthy dose of enlightenment!
You are a rat and Should be ashamed we have ALL been victims of this AND I have not met a single person that did not lie in some way shape or form just clothing or any thing you do to make your self look better than you actually are or even having a single picture a day old is fraud almost anything can be considered a lie in some degree and I’m sure you have done the same at some point in some way even if you claimed to have a higher lvl of interest in a similar interest than you actually did so you you accepted being imprisoned tomorrow just because you tried to impress some one you found attractive i as a good person would refuse to ruin any woman’s life just because she told me any lie that she fabricated just to get with me unles it would ultimately kill me of course but the lie or no lie you still said yes you agreed to the act you could have just said no knowing that the person was lying ruin a life for a simple lie as saying they are Rich your pathetic
You are a rat and Should be ashamed we have ALL been victims of this AND I have not met a single person that did not lie in some way shape or form just clothing or any thing you do to make your self look better than you actually are or even having a single picture a day old is fraud almost anything can be considered a lie in some degree and I’m sure you have done the same at some point in some way even if you claimed to have a higher lvl of interest in a similar interest than you actually did. so if you accept being imprisoned tomorrow just because you tried to impress some one you found attractive then by all means do so. i as a good person would refuse to ruin any woman’s life just because she told me any lie that she fabricated just to get with me unles it would ultimately kill me of course but the lie or no lie you still said yes you agreed to the act you could have just said no knowing that the person was lying ruin a life for a simple lie as saying they are Rich. Hell any one sleeping with some one because they are ritch is a lie because I’m sure they did not state that they slept with them because they were rich. your pathetic. You know as well as I that there is a possibility that the person chosen to be slept with may be a lier
Sam- it would be best for you to understand that the world has changed. It’s no longer ok to rape people. It used to be.
Don’t lie to get laid in TN, MO, or AL. You could wind up in jail. So it would be best for you to stop believing that what you do to attract someone is something that yo can take into the bedroom. If you told them a lie to get them interested, you need to straighten it out before you use that lie to undermine their self determination over their reproductive organs.
Some questions, when a lie becomes a fraud or a scam? are all lies the same? are all lies equal? are all lies the same as fraud and scam? what about omission of information? is it a lie? all omissions are the same? what about manipulations? seduction? what about man who are “great with the ladies”? so called pick up artists? what about making great impression misleading your date thinking you are really into her and after sex never calling back? is every as$#ole is a criminal? rapist? are they all “Sexual preditors”? psychopaths?
When man’s money is a dealbraker, meaning she is interested in sex only if his is rich(god forbid if he lies) is not a crime? what about dressing sexually driving man crazy, playing with them, sending fake signals of intrest, getting free drinks and more, and then brutaly reject them, fraud or not? the mother of all frauds! it’s sheer abuse!
(By the way, this is how you create assholes in the first place and vice versa to be honest, i do have some empathy and understanding for these girls, the chicken and the egg i’m afraid).
To be perfectly clear, i never lied or even close to get a woman in bed, i think it’s disgusting, besides, i’m a horrible liar, i’m just pointing out or putting a spotlight on the hypocrisy, neither man nor woman are innocent, it’s the game! woman are no victims, far from it, victims are on both sexs. Of course taking someone elses identity in situation when sex acts as currency is fraud and criminal, but besides that? taking advantage of someones emotional state to have sex, without pretending and forcing anything? please! sick, low, disgusting – yes, crime or rape? – no!, it’s not like having sex with nearly passed out drunk girl with zero judgement – this is rape.
Just because someone feels cheated, humiliated and violated does not mean they don’t have any responsibility, somtimes they do!
Unfortunately, it seems that you’re dismissive of the horror of being sexually violated. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be asking me such silly questions. So here is what you need to know….
When people lie to undermine your self determination over your reproductive organs, they’re committing sexual assault, not seduction. You’re not consenting if you were tricked into sex.
Even if this law is passed in every state, the bar is quite high to prosecute. The victim would have to have a reasonable basis of belief of the lie and they would need substantial proof that the fraud or deception took place.
If men can’t lie about their wallets, then women can’t lie about their looks. (That means no more makeup, Botox, push-up bras, plastic surgery, etc. That’s raping men via “fraudulent arousal”. Remember: this is about equality, ladies.)
I can’t wait for this law.
I want to live a happy life with a sucker who has money and i can milk him for all his assets.
Men should have no defense against gold diggers! How are we women supposed to scam them !?
Thank you Joyce. As a butthurt gold digger who went on to write a whole book about how butthurt you were “he was not rich” you understand my plight.
You obviously selectively read my site and skipped right over my comments about Gold Diggers.
And you obviously did not read my book either. “He was not rich” was not a factor…. in fact, he’s about as rich as most men get. And his significant other, who enabled him to completely live off the grid and hide his income from the courts to stiff his child from child support is one of the wealthiest women on the planet.
Vicious people simply get off on being vicious and corrupt. He lies, she helps him swear to it.
This person does not understand that lies are a form of force; that is, while reality beckons we exist honestly, we can through force attract people through the chemistry of words & appearances, and that is as physically forceful as attracting people through clutching the electro-magnetic atoms in your hands around the electro-magnetic atoms in their arms to pull them forward.
Seducing & attracting people by wrapping the uninvited magnetism of streams of thoughts behind the images in the electromagnetic chemicals in their mind to weave desire is not impossible for anyone, and it isn’t an art; it’ is forceful rape.
Doing it against their will through the use of the waves of rhythmic sounds & ideas (lies) to get in behind the barriers of their thoughts, grabbing the atoms of their mind & pulling it forward knowing there was already a resistance through their boundaries—is no different than grabbing the electromagnetic of atoms in their body with the atoms in yours. Using the magnetic rhythms of sound, language, and ideas to pull their reciprocation forward is a form of scientific force.
Anyone can do it. I can walk up to a stranger and evoke any response I want merely by knowing the art of cultural human behavior; am I now entitled to evoke any response I want in a person based upon my understanding of culture?
Does knowing how to manipulate people give us the right to do so? Does that mean that because I understand how to manipulate the atoms in a body or a city bank, I am now free to tie it up, molest it, or in the case of a bank, rob it of all its funds? Does knowing how things work & how to manipulate it give us the moral right to do whatever we want now with it?
No. Neither does understanding the rhythms of cultural response, emotions, & thoughts in your particular society now free you to manipulate people however you’d like. Being a con-artist is still a con-artist, whether you are using your understanding of physics to forcefully rape someone physically, or your understanding of physics to weave intellectual responses & emotions in others.
Intention & consent are key here, and just as we are expected to physically respect each other’s boundaries, there needs to be laws upholding each other’s mental & emotional boundaries. There is a science to it, and the con-artist prides itself in knowing how to manipulate the chemistry, and much of the mainstream media applauds this when in fact there is indeed a moral compass of intention, integrity, and boundaries that need to be upheld for the less tangible parts of ourselves.
Sexual predators are masters at the mechanics of brain chemistry. They absolutely know how to how to use seduction to get what they want. And you’re correct… just because you know how to do something, does not give you the right to do it. When it harms another person, and particularly when it sexually exploits another person, it should be against the law.
I hope you’ll sign up for a copy of “Combating Romance Scams, Why Lying to Get Laid Is a Crime” and participate in the the drawing that will take place for readers who purchase on the first day and write a review within the first 2 weeks. I’ll be giving away a free KindleFire based on participation in this drawing. Your participation is invaluable in getting a law passed to prevent the crime wave of romance scams that harm countless victims each and every day. Here’s the link: http://bit.ly/2dnrC0H
There really is a way to stop it. “Combating Romance Scams” can get the job done.
Yes definitely, I applied. I also run my own marketing firm, and I am willing to help you because this is a just cause. Pleeeease do get in contact with me, and make use of my marketing agency as we can do much better if we join professional efforts; I will not charge for this matter that is bigger than capitalism.
Brian- You are AWESOME! How do I reach you?
Hi Joyce! My apologies for the delay, I did not get a notification. Find me at sealedwax.com; my direct e-mail is attached to this comment.
as a man I can’t wait for this law, when me and my date feel like having sex we can take our time to show each other our passports, ID, college records, health records, family records, and then kick her our of my house because she lied about her weight and education. Of course I say this assuming men and women are treated equally in the justice system and women are capable of lying too, but we all know women get easier sentences and less time spent in prison when compared to men, for the same crimes, so I’m not looking forward to a one sided application of this law especially when people don’t even take male rapes seriously. Men can rape and lie, but women can’t rape and lie; so we need to create laws to oppress men decades after the consentual sexual act, am I right?! (please notice my high level of sarcasm) Let’s try your logic on this story: wife initiates consentual sex with husband assuring him that she is on birth control, but later ends up pregnant because she lied. RAPIST BY FRAUD! if you think that women can’t lie and rape by fraud then you are a sexist.
Hi Joyce, Exciting
June 1st is
In honor of Narcissistic Abuse Awareness Day, (which is today) I made this video on the top 10 commonly experienced emotions people feel during (and after) narcissistic abuse. My goal of this video was to provide a broad brush overview of how we all tend to feel so that it will help people who are lost in the fog to realize that they way they are feeling is a big sign that something is off.
Thrive After Abuse
Great grasp of this issue! Thanks for posting it on my blog. Hope you’ll create a video to support Truth in Romance Day on June 15th as well!
An element I’d like to add to everyone’s perception about Narcissistic abuse is that we often ignore these emotions when we feel them because our brain chemistry works hard to keep us attached to our romantic relationships. Romantic love is basically a form of addiction. It’s how Mother Nature keeps us together to raise our children to maturity. Whether we have a child in the relationship or not, the affection and sexual behavior we experience stirs up our neuropeptides and hormones to attach us and keep us attached.
Another reason some folks are more prone to remain in bad relationships has to do with their level of positive valence, the characteristic that makes people believe that things will work out for the best. Some of us simply have stronger positive valence than others.
Once victims understand these dynamics, it’s easier for them to understand why they fell for and remained in a toxic relationship, and forgive themselves for having done so.
I did not make the video Dana Who owns the site did. Thrive After Abuse on Youtube.com. I am just on the forum. I post your Rape by Fraud on there too. AS many of us feel we get Mind F*** Raped. So I will post Truth in Romance Day June 15th. WE are all in this together, of What Psychopaths do to us….VERY interesting. Morgan Freeman did a series on The Story of God on National Geographic (Episode 5 “Why Does Evil Exist) look on youtube.com for it. IT has research of Psychopaths criminals and HOW their brain develops differently. BUT a lot contributes to their end results of how their life was too. Kindness to you :))
Thanks for clearing that up and spreading the word on Truth in Romance Day!
Truth in Romance Day?
You… you realise that’s TiRD, right?
It is also because Narc/Psychopaths have a sick 6 sense of finding their victims that they are looking for. They prey on people like a vampire for blood. They have learned special techniques of brainwashing us and putting us under a spell. The way they mind manipulate us, gets us so mentally mind fucked we get crazy and do not think clearly. We drop our bounders and if we stay long enough, unless they discard us we become use to the way we are treated. The main Supply/Victim who stays a long time of girlfriend/boyfriend, married may have Stockholm syndrome. In my case the longtime gf, is his enabler and she knows all to know and she at times participates in the sickness of bullying the women he was with.Once the women find out about her and they go to her, they are discarded, but there is no explanation of WHY or CLOSURE from him. She then says, “You were nothing, It was long ago, I am the GF,” twice with me, they were away and they were text bullying me while drunk on her phone, He has a second phone, that is his dirty black book sextext phone, she knows and allows it, AS she say, I can’t make him not have it. He brings it with them on vacations so on. BUT when they are bullying, it is on her phone as she is part of his secrets he is sharing, so she is a mental herself. Is she a victim yes, NOW more to herself, not because of him. She sells her soul for the social limelight, FB show off, Money spent on her, IF that ended, I do not think she would stay. He has her to show he is a normal good guy. A President of a major Aerospace company. He boasts about himself all over the internet more of him then the CEO of the company. I had so many flying monkeys of the other women victims, a woman who wrote a sex book on him, Lawyer, death threats, police reports. This year has been my second year and healing. They say it takes 2years to heal. I have a box of evidence in my garage in case ever a lot of women come forward. In our book club on the forum we are Reading Psychopath Free, by Peace or he goes by another name as the book was grey now yellow. THE BEST book to understand what had happened to us victims. Anyways Kindness to you
Hi Ms. Short, I posted on Thrive After Abuse forum, June 15th day. Dana is very passionate. She has had her one year a month ago and she is growing. She wants to start talking to Authors of books. Maybe someday you and her will connect. Ms. Short under CAD TALES is that where we put name and 411 on a potential man or women on your list? I did it once awhile ago. I was trying again to see if his name came up. I have not heard anything back. If you find the persons name on the list more then from one person, do you connect the other victims for them to e-mail each other? How does that work? Kindness to you
I wish I had a nickel for every time I said rape by fraud is gender neutral; it happens to men as well as women.
BTW- you’re sarcastically revealing your failure to comprehend the importance of actions that involve a person’s genitals. You statement shows that you think we should all ignore securing consent because it’s just a trivial inconvenience in your rush to get laid. Unfortunately, your grotesque rape mentality is very common.
Hello, your blog is really helpful.
Hi Ms Joyce, I’d like to know why my story and a question for you that I submitted on Apr 21 was deleted. Thanks and more power.
When I delete a comment, I make a practice of emailing the person unless their comment is so outrageous that it’s blatantly obvious it would get deleted. Your email bounced back to me as undeliverable.
I think much of the vulgar, vicious comments I receive are from folks who know full-well their nastiness will not see the light of day for very long. My policy of allowing anyone to comment without registration will continue. But I will simply hit the delete for trash.
That’s not to say yours qualified as trash. Instead, I removed your comment because of several reasons:
You named names. I do not include the names of people or content leading to the identity of additional victims unless there has already been a public disclosure or prosecution of the offender’s wrong doing. The wife of the man you had an affair with is an injured party, and would be harmed by the disclosures you made. Describing your sexual conduct with her husband is not something I’ll subject her to.
Frankly, I can’t see why any wife would be kind toward a woman who had sex with her husband. Perhaps if the wife knew that the other woman had no idea that the guy was married, she’d feel differently. But in your case, you knew full well that he, indeed, was a married guy with children. I fail to see his wife as the villain here.
You seem void of concern that you enabled him to step out on his wife. Instead, you’re solely focused on the lies he stated in order to manipulate you.
Yes, he’s a scum bag. Yes, he mislead you. He’s a sex addict and wanted more than what he was getting at home. You were his victim as well as his wife and his children were.
In the future, when a married guy winks, don’t wink back. And for God’s sake, don’t listen to the blithering excuses they make for doing so. Someone who cheats on his wife is NOT an honest person. Do not expect them to be.
I hope you recover and can relate to the concept that cheaters cheat. That’s what they do, no matter how demonstrative they are about wanting to be with you. Because you engaged in sexual behavior that you knew was inappropriate, a prosecutor would be unlikely to see your actions as “reasonable” and take your case even if there were a sexual assault by fraud law in your state.
I tried to tell you this privately, but the techno gremlins had other ideas.
Hi Joyce, I agree with you that the wife is the victim here. But you should also realize that she’s the reason why this affair was brought out in the open. She communicated with me under handedly as her husband and took other identities, one of those was as a lawyer to harass and threaten my career. I never blamed her for those actuations. There’s no greater pain that I caused her and her family. Hell hath no fury to a woman scorned. That’s how she reacted to the situation. My concern is that she’s still taunting me once in a while. Although she still uses other identities, I could tell that it’s she because of how she misspelled words. All I wanted was for her husband to man up as to why the affair started – promised that we’d be exclusive and he’d separate from her by throwing away his wedding ring. Maybe she’ll stop from bothering me. I sued the cheater for my personal belongings and during the settlement, he apologized for making me a scapegoat. He apologized for his betrayal, but I wanted him to apologize for his deception. I don’t know how this is going to end, but I will not rest until I am able to bring him to justice or any other way to vindicate myself. Your blog was really a great help. Although my case is not legit, it sure helped me vent. Take care, best regards, and more power to you.
emmanjoy, I was wondering are there other women victims that got hooked on him? Have other women contacted the wife? I was involved with a man, who CLAIMED to be a bachelor single, had two girlfriends after a bad divorced, so busy raising his son as his ex-wife wasn’t really helping. He found me on craiglist. THAT is a place of many who prey on victims. Anyways, he said he did not want a girlfriend/boyfriend relationships. A lover/friend one. Fun weekends, go places, passion. We met for lunch and talked more about if us and if I and he had a connection. I asked for I.D. So it started, but instead of taking me places, OH we can be at my beach house, or I have my son this weekend or on and on excuses. I told him in the beginning IF and When you decided this is NOT working for you or you want other women, please tell me so I can make the right choices for me. During the beginning he was love-blooming me daily several times a day with sweet texts, I am sure he was texting 10 other women, Long story short. there was a long term gf, a harem of women, many lies and manipulation gifts I gave, as he gave me some too. He took from me and threw in the trash as one gift I made A Token Box very sentimental. I had to go to therapy, see a shrink to get meds, See three lawyers. That was my 2015. I had evidence, text but no words. ONLY the words can come to me, if a court case and Subpoenaed. A Civil court case maybe would scare him to give me money, as it would be public.IF a Civil court case, two year, more money spent and if I win. It is hard to get the rewarded money. Small claims court I was shooting for, as up to $10,000 dollars, but I had NO real evidence to give as the text were not words and had to sue for Emotional distress. SO I HAD TO LET IT GO, IF AND WHEN OTHER WOMEN COME forward, I will help. Me alone was not cutting it. Try to heal and cut your loses. if you have evidence of being harassed by the wife. Restraining order $500.
Kindness to you
Thanks, Healing Victim. I kept all my evidences and I have been using it against the wife for about 17 months now. She’s also an embezzler in the Philippines and a lot of her relatives brought evidences. Now I am announcing that embezzlement on Fb. As for the spineless coward, the wife said that he had relationships with their maids, his clients as a banker, and his tellers.
Many thanks for the help in this question. I did not know it.
Isn’t wearing make-up also a form of fraud? I’d be curious to see your comments on this. If a man finds a woman attractive, say out at a bar or dinner or first date that could lead to sex if the woman is also willing and finds him attractive. If in the morning, without make-up, the man finds the woman is in fact ugly and he is not attracted to her, isn’t this rape by fraud? If not, why? Someone will reply with, “well that’s just shallow,” but the woman would presumably also have to be attracted to him, therefore being shallow in her own right. So, why is saying, “I’m a doctor,” any different than effectively wearing a mask on the date? Aren’t the words just a verbal mask to the woman’s physical mask?
Body art originated over 100,000 years ago in Africa. And cosmetics can be traced back 6,000 years to ancient Greece and Egypt. It would be unreasonable for a man to think the woman he was having sex with was not wearing makeup.
On the contrary, with the exceptions of our politicians, sorry for the nod to our present political climate, most of society is honest. What comes out of their mouth must be factual if induces you to behave in a certain way. If they intend for you to act on their lie, they are assaulting, not seducing you.
You’re dead wrong, but like most on the far left you simply won’t admit it. Have you read Plato’s Republic? Aristophanes’ The Clouds? In both, written well over 2,000 years ago, it talked about the ‘unjust speech.’ The Poets in the Republic said that we all want to lie, we just don’t want to get caught. The Ring of Gyges, makes you invisible, Socrates said we would all use it to lie.
You example of, well women wear make-up and therefore you should just accept it, is sexist. You’re saying, “Men should just deal with it, but women don’t have to.”
No, I’m saying that “reasonable” behavior is required by the victim in prosecuting most criminal offenses.
It is unreasonable for a man to think the woman standing in front of him is not wearing makeup unless the woman is of a specific sect that forbids its use. Like most women, I apply my makeup in the morning before I walk out the door. The only exception is if I’m seriously ill or my dogs look like they’ll split a gut if I don’t reach for their leashes and rush them outside. My use of makeup has nothing to do with sex, and if a man asked if I were wearing any, my answer would be “yes.” Try asking the next time you hop in the sack with someone.
Why doesn’t your advice hold true for women as well. Why can’t a woman a man to prove something that she may see as suspicious. “I’m Brad Pitt’s cousin.” “Okay, let me see a picture of you two together.” Why is it only the man’s duty to ask? It’s takes two to have sex, it should take two to be sure.
You’re example of the make-up doesn’t hold up against lying when confronted with the example I gave. You said make-up has been around for a long time, so has lying. You said it’s reasonable to assume a woman is wearing make-up, why isn’t it reasonable to assume that a man or woman would lie to sleep with someone? Not to mention the utter backlash if a man were to ask a woman 1) If she is wearing make-up 2) If she could please remove it before he decided to sleep with her and her with him
This is nonsense. Most women would find this ridiculous. Like the guy said earlier, if you had it your way, it seems, you’d meet each other, do through a round of questioning then go back to the house and undress in order to inspect each other then have sex…maybe after consent is signed. You should read Dr. Helen Smith’s book Men on Strike. What you are describing here is exactly why men are foregoing marriage, foregoing children and sticking to themselves. This is real consequences on society. Society needs men every bit as much as it needs women. Don’t believe me, look at Japan.
I can assure you, women would far prefer men deserting marriage than raping them. It’s not a trade off.
Women should not have to endure rape in order to be marriagable.
You’re saying that men are simply liars. And that women should count on their being liars.
I’m glad you and I don’t live in the same circles. What a cynical world you live in!
Reproductive organs have a basic function in the life and humanity of a person. But their use has slipped from being a privilege to being nothing more than idle entertainment in the minds of many, and it sounds like you’re one of those folks. The next time you bed someone, please try to remember that she (unless you’re gay) actually lives inside her body, and what she does with it is her right to give, not your right to take by any means possible. And the same holds true in reverse.
I am not saying all men are liars, just like not all women wear make-up. You said that a man should assume that a women is wearing make-up and therefore I said a woman should assume a man will lie to sleep with them.
Secondly, it’s not a marry or rape scenario. It’s the idea that in a divorce the man loses half the stuff he helped build, he has almost no chance in retaining custody of his children, many times he loses the house (even if it’s shared, the man loses out far more than he wins this battle), while the tables used to be the man works and the female cares for the house the man now finds himself working as well as taking care of the house (which often times he is given only the ‘man-cave,’ basement or garage as his while the family has the run of the entire house).
It’s a losing battle for men and they are realizing it. This has been written on extensively but only now coming to the forefront. There were books written on this in the 90s. Men are simply going on strike. There was a poll released recently that showed 80% of young females wanted to marry at some point but only 60% of males. This has real implications on society.
However, so long as feminists have the evil ACs and men telling them they’re pilots for sex….who cares about this serious stuff like child rearing in a two parent household or having men on hand to do the jobs that women, historically, have been unwilling to do.
Everyone, including me, has the right to change the laws if they don’t like how they’re operating, right? So do you.
Throwing all the ills of society at me in order to refute what I’m saying simply falls flat. I didn’t create what you feel is unfair to men, and I’m not in a position to change it. Someone else can fight that battle. It won’t be me.
BTW- in my divorce- he gave up nothing, hid his assets and lifestyle, and didn’t even support his son. So don’t look for agreement here with your beef about how men are treated in divorce. You’re barking up the wrong tree.
And btw…. big secret Weston…… most women wear makeup. It’s rare that they don’t. You would not be reasonable to think that the woman you meet is not wearing it.
Most men don’t lie. It would be unreasonable to think that they do. In fact, you’d be a cynic if you did.
Do you see the dichotomy in that? It’s not a basis by which you can prove your point.
So here’s the thing…
Men should assume that all women are wearing makeup. Why? Because there is a great likelihood they are. If it’s important to you to know what she looks like under the makeup… ask her to wash her face before you have sex.
Sure, if you’re after a quick lay with a stranger, it would put a damper on the mood. But if you’re after a quick lay with a stranger and don’t want to take this step, you have to accept the responsibility that you decided not to look into the matter further. It was your choice to overlook a simple and obvious inquiry.
But here’s what happens to women when men lie….. for instance “I’m a doctor.” First off, women are less likely to be looking for a “quick lay.” That’s more of a guy thing. But, none-the-less, if she jumps in bed with you to have quicky sex, she’s no more “defrauded” than you were because she, just like you, did not conduct appropriate due diligence before engaging in sex with you. This is not a prosecutorial case. So you see, telling her you’re a doctor (except that doing so is prosecutorial under other laws) and wearing makeup are the same when you’re dealing with “quickie sex.” It’s not “prosecutorial” either way.
Here’s where it becomes a criminal act:
The woman meets a world renowned heart surgeon who says he’s single. They date for many months and travel to several romantic destinations. He’s operated on several world leaders, even the Pope. They become engaged. She buys a gorgeous gown from a prominent designer and the invitations go out to family and friends. Except for one slight problem…. she discovers that he’s married with two kids. BTW- this is a true story. And this is a case of sexual assault by fraud.
Are you beginning to see the difference between wearing makeup and a case that could actually be prosecuted if there were a law against sexual assault by fraud in your state?
Well done. Well done indeed. 🙂
I would say that “quicky sex” isn’t always the same; in the case of high functioning autistic individuals, who often go undiagnosed but are clearly disadvantaged—they tend to have difficulty establishing boundaries. Sometimes the “quicky sex” is pressured upon by the predator, and they walk away unharmed while those who are less obvious to be disabled on the surface become disregarded & torn to absolute shreds.
Thus, sometimes the “quicky sex” is pressured specifically to operate on a level of exploitation toward those with weaker boundaries, special needs, naivety/trust, and life difficulty; there are levels of duress that exceed the black & white of “quicky sex”. The seduction works quick. In this sense, I think that the seduction itself is an absolute crime, and a legitimate sexual harassment as it makes very little sense to be sexually accosting anyone you barely know, for you have NO IDEA what they’re dealing with—& of course, the predators are hoping for the easy target, regardless of how miserable & hard their life is; if one establishes boundaries, and the other keeps romanticizing things then maybe even pushing for sex—quite often they sexually harass the individual without them realizing until their heart is invested, and depending upon their values they may have been addicted by charm & discarded even if they didn’t have sex. Alas, this is a painted picture.
Thus, I think there is more to the story; not that it is related to your battle here, which is very nobel—but something very worthwhile to think about.
Well noted Brian. Thanks!
Most states have current statutes that prosecute people for taking advantage of someone whose mental capacity is compromised. Unfortunately, in such cases, the argument for the defense becomes “Did the offender know that the victim’s understanding was compromised?” If so, and the Prosecutor can prove that’s the case, the accused would be guilty of sexual assault.
Consent can only be achieved when the parties are “informed” and “knowing.” Someone with diminished capacity that clouds their reasoning ability cannot provide consent.
It’s not that they’re unable to consent, but that many operate on levels above normal consent for anyone. Creating a sexual culture of covert prostitution called dating and casual sex have many casualties. Those with disabilities might be unaware, naive, and choosing to wait to reveal their condition. Meanwhile, it’s sickeningly legal for sexual predators to have no boundaries or reservations. Meaning, those who are disabled and reserved are inevitably likely to be trapped, harassed, and raped regardless of their boundaries, because sexual promiscuity is considered for legitimately no reason superior to their needs. Who then takes the blame?
In a culture who elevates sexual liberty over strength and sense, the needy are blamed for the predator’s “lack of knowing”. In other words, those who should have sense are exempt for not having sense, and compassion comes instead in the form of dismissal and blame.
Unfortunately, our dating society thinks that sex can be “casual.” And for some, it may very well be. But for most of society, sex stirs up brain chemistry that promotes attachment, whether we planned for that to happen or not. Some people are more susceptible to hoaxes than others simply because they are more trusting and less suspicious. A person who deliberately takes advantage of them is vulgar and malicious at their core.
I love listening to you speak. I am a prophet, and I can tell you to rest assured you are serving a heaven sent purpose. That is a fact.
Part of society’s problem is that it is emotionally malicious by nature. A woman can be malicious and emotionally destructive without penalty; they can even slap a man. If a man slap’s a woman, it is equated with throwing her down the stairs.
I think we need to enter a time where men and women can slap each other when the other is being emotionally and psychologically malicious equally.
I’ve seen countless movies when women do whatever they want, slap a man, and are glorified for it. But then when a man slaps a woman, everything turns into Armageddon.
I believe it’s a deliberate attack to feminize society with dominance so that men are toys and marriage doesn’t work out. Promiscuity is glamorized, women being abusive are glamorized.
Aggressive rape is just as bad as passive-aggressive rape. And allowing abuse and exploitation, while women can slap people but men are considered idiotic dangerous tools to be beaten, blamed, and used is rotten.
Thanks for your vote of confidence.
I’d have to differ with you on your solution to slapping people of the opposite sex. I don’t think evening out the score by mutual entitlement is the solution. How ’bout restraint by both genders instead. 😉
Sorry but raping someone and slapping someone don’t have the same weight. In most states, slapping is considered a simple assault and is punished as a misdemeanor. There’s quite a difference between the harm of a slap and the grotesque defilement of violating someone’s reproductive organs, which is why the penalties for both crimes are considerably different.
No one, male or female should be slapped. And no one, male or female should be raped. Also, no one, male or female, should enrage a person to the extent that they engender a slap, and sometimes, that’s the case. I really don’t like to make generalities that one gender’s behavior toward the other is worse or better. There are men who behave badly, and there are women who behave badly. One form of bad behavior does not justify another form of bad behavior in response, unless protecting oneself or others becomes the issue.
Duly noted and I agree to an extent. But hear me out. My point is a little extended here, and in the Quran I think people are misunderstanding certain contexts even.
The point is that emotionally & psychological defiance & abuse is just as heinous as someone physically assaulting you. Do you not have the right to self defend? If someone was coming at you physically and punching you, shouldn’t you have the right to fight back?
But in a society where we become so entangled with one another in the dance of life, then someone begins playing outside the bounds by emotionally & psychologically casting spells of deceit over you … Emotionally hurting you, twisting stories, half-truths, luring you unconsensually. It hurts—like you said. A gross defilement of the reproductive organs.
Yet, the problem is that Hollywood has feminized morality. So, when a man cheats on a woman in a movie or he starts flirting with other women & hitting on other women, the woman often will slap the man and everyone in the audience will cheer. Why? Because the man has so emotionally attacked & hurt her with deception, rape by deception, and other forms of abuse that a simple slap to physically represent her pain and get the point across is already understood in the collective consciousness to be a pretty potent & natural response.
Now, the problem with why rape by deception is tolerated in society is because of the feminization of morality. That is, rape is only considered bad when it is aggressive (a naturally masculine trait). But when rape is passive—it is, again, often cheered. There are some serious double standards here. If a woman cheated on a man in a movie or she was verbally accosting him, and the man naturally slapped her back—the culture of the Hollywood industry would demonize the man.
So, my point here is that rape by deception is a passive form of rape, and there are some hurtles to overcome with the double standard in regards to self-defense when someone emotionally guts out your insides through the use of seduction & lies, the aggressive/passive acceptable forms, what is prosecutable, what should be taken seriously, which gender is the only real victim in any case, and so-on. The notion of women being the sane victims in society while they win in divorce cases is not an unusual stereotype.
In fact, women are pretty immune to wear any hairstyle, clothing style, make-up, personality, voice tone, word usage, & career that they want without being persecuted. Men are shoved into tiny little boxes and told not to have too many emotions; then they are told that they cannot slap a woman if she is emotionally beating the living spirit out of his chest & ruining his life to total oblivion, but she will be cheered if she gives him a slap when he does something to her.
Personally I think rape by deception should receive the death penalty; a slap is cookies to me. I’d punch a culprit in the face man or woman and have them hung, but that’s just me and what I know from my own experience. But your biggest hurtle is overcoming the narcissistic glorification of passive abuse & feminine witchcraft that dominates the culture, parading as a victim.
Passive or aggressive—rape is rape. Also, emotional & psychological torture, nagging, and harassment is just as painful as physical. You have several stigmas to tackle here.
1) That emotional torture only affects women, and that women can therefore slap a man when she charges him with the assault while the man should just “take it and deal with it or pretend it never happened because real men don’t have feelings so therefore a physical external response to defending one’s internal self in the entanglements of love only pertains to women”.
2) That aggressive forms of rape are the only way to violate a person’s internal consent, which is generally only applicable to women & children because men are by nature physically stronger & therefore will rarely ever be abused so calling out passive rape would be detrimental to women’s empowerment.
Here’s where we differ….
A slap is punitive. It vents anger, If it were intended to stop harm, than a slap would be justified. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is vigilante justice. We are all entitled to stop harm against us, not create harm for others.
Truth is, bullies maliciously enrage people. A slap from someone half their size causes such minor pain, that they get their jollies out of causing others the distress that enrages them to that extent.
People misbehave toward people. I’m not attempting to justify when it is or is not appropriate to slap someone. But, no matter how a person behaves toward you, it’s NEVER appropriate to rape someone.
The other day I noticed an argument going on in front of my building. The guy would not let leave the woman alone although she asked him to do so several times. They had two small kids with them. One was seated at the bench at the bus stop where they argued. The other was in her arms.
The guy was relentless. I didn’t get all the details but it was obvious it was a lovers quarrel. He got in her face and shouted at her. She slapped him. I ran for the police. Their office was just steps away.
I don’t know the wrong or right about their difference, but surely, enraging someone while they’re holding a child in their arms is not the solution, even if you are 100% correct in your position.
Fortunately, the officer who responded was intelligent. Like me, his concern was that the physical level of the disagreement not escalate, and particularly, not in front of the kids.
The guy was an absolute bully toward her. He was muscular. He had at least 50 pounds on her. I’d hate to think what would have happened had the officer not intervened. She probably would have suffered terrible physical harm, and he would have claimed she hit him first and “started it.” Everyone has a boiling point. Pushing a person past their boiling point does not justify physical harm when they attempt to get you to stop.
I do not in any way equate a slap with rape; you are misunderstanding my point. In America, if a man swoons a woman, she finds out and slaps him, people will nearly unequivocally defend her. This, however, isn’t a response to a physical threat.
Why? Why is a society so quick to recognize that a woman being swooned (which we both understand is as passive rape) has the right to physically address the emotional address … But, when a woman swoons a man—society generally tells him to get over it, move on, or even to feel lucky he found such a kinky girl.
Why is passive rape toward a man not recognized as a greater assault than a slap in the face? So, a woman slapping a man in response to being deceived during seduction is accepted upon revelation, yet a man slapping a woman for doing the same?
There is a double standard here that needs addressed. In other words, passive rape is generally recognized to an extent: The extent that a woman may slap a man for swooning her and people would run to her defense.
Then, we ask ourselves, why is aggressive rape only pitied by courts & not passive rape? A woman may slap a man for passive rape, but a man is not allowed to slap her? Also, when is the last time a grown man was forcefully held down by a stronger woman & raped? It is very, very rare I can tell you that much.
And it leads to me believe that there is an unspoken cultural obsession with empowering women to a fault … All the way down to allowing them to slap a man for passive rape, but these political feminist forces would nearly never consent to being imprisoned for their seductive assaults. Indeed, because that would be depowering to the feminist struggle.
So, passive rape (which you call rape by fraud) is ignored because then suddenly women are not the victims of sexual assault across the board anymore—but equal offenders. This doesn’t fit into the empowerment narratives many women wish to have by demonizing the masculine, aggressive testosterone force is my belief—so rape by fraud (or, rape by passive force) is instead ignored but supported by subconscious cultural double-standards as well.
Weston, I’m a woman and I go with everything you’ve said. As women, we have to share the responsibility of allowing someone to get one over on us to sleep with us. This entire dialogue is making light of women who have truly been raped and I think it’s a shame. I’ve been raped and to compare that to what Joyce is wanting is ludicrous!
Women have done nothing but turn off the good men and it will worsen with the attitudes I’ve read on this blog. There’s something to be said about being old fashioned. If we were, we wouldn’t be hopping into bed so quickly just because a man tells us he single, rich, or whatever his tale is in order to get tail.
@Ashley- “As women, we have to share the responsibility of allowing someone to get one over on us to sleep with us.”
What a despicable load of rape mentality! You truly need an education on fraud. Bernie Madoff is in jail for a lifetime for defrauding his victims of money. If you think a victim’s sexual autonomy is less important to them than their assets, think again.
Your dismissiveness bespeaks a callous disregard for a person’s sexual autonomy.
Obviously, you have not listened carefully to what I’ve said or you would know that I was forcibly raped as well as raped by fraud. The last thing you should be preaching to me about is the impact of violent vs. non violent harm.
Good men don’t lie, cheat and steal. Turning men off to lying cheating and stealing is a benefit, not a hindrance.
As a rape survivor, you likely recognize the sense of defilement that accompanies rape. That sense of defilement separates sexual assault from other forms of assault. That sense of defilement impacts victims no matter what tool the sexual predator uses to undermine their victim’s self determination over their reproductive organs. You should not be minimizing the harm done to others.
There are some really dumb people on here….The word RAPE IS A HARD WORD to see as I got mentally Raped….I believe I did….MOST of these people who are doing these abuse, do it over and over. Many are Narcissistic…The Covert Narcissist are the ones to watch out for, as they have two lives. Public life and behind the scenes WHEN A PERSON IS DOING YOU MENTAL HARM WITH INTENT, taking your rights away, and mentally brain washing you, as you have never come across.
Such a con fraud manipulating person, WHO uses a HUMAN being as a DRUG…They are being TRICKED- cunning or skillful act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone WITH INTENT!!!! AND THEY ARE DOING IT FOR YEARS TO MANY. They Ghost you, leaving you hanging with NO explanations. They take from you, rob you, and it is A PERSON WHO LIES THROUGHOUT THEIR LIFE OVER AND OVER….
They stock you. They send you secret death threats through e-mail. They do smear campaigns against you. THEY are so GOOD at being charming, smooth talker, great lover…BUT ONE THING MISSING: NO HUMAN REMORSE EMPATHY OR REAL CARING EMOTIONS…THE BRAIN AND HEART ARE NOT CONNECTED…
There is a difference of a man or women who messes around here and there lies a bit, BUT IF you are asking the right questions and trust them, and there is time involved, NOT just a booty call or one night stand, or if YOU DID NOT HAVE THE TALK…NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING!!!! Social Media is feeding many of these people who are evil monsters, they are looking for supply over and over. A new high. They abuse their partners, Many get C-PTSD, Flash backs, depression, Stockholm Syndrome.
JOYCE CAN’T THERE BE A SITE TO List people who are doing these things. Like a dating check on them site? LiarCheaterUs.com is kind of low grade.
A new site called ICheckMates is launching shortly. It will provide a “stamp of approval” for people who voluntarily go through a background check.
There are sites that post information on offenders, but if the person has not been tried and convicted in a court of law, or no charges have been filed against them, it is questionable whether such a list is lawful or not.
I maintain a private list of people who were complained about. The reason I do so is to pass information to the authorities in the event that a case goes to court . If I receive an inquiry from law enforcement, I would send the information to them, but not to the public.
Publicly discrediting people without a trial is not something I agree with doing.
Thank you Joyce, I know there is a lot of grey area of the word RAPE being used, as being mentally raped. I used mentally minded fucked, before I started using that term. AND the word FRAUD of people wearing make-up or getting boob jobs, or was a man now a women..so on those are more of illusions, which we see all the time…FRAUD where someone is consistently abusing your emotions and in a sense brain washing you so badly that you don’t know truth to lies, as it is a crime of emotional intent of feeding off of your emotions being manipulated by them, as they take money from you, caring feelings from you, sharing your body sexually with them under the conditions that you are in a relationship of some understanding and communication as adults. YES, people lie, but if you keep asking the same question of protecting yourself of your RITES OF CHOICE, I am sorry but THAT PERSON IS PREDATOR. It is a game of entertainment and getting a fix, a high, a purpose of them being alive, BUT not really human and relating to empathy. A Character of a person, BUILT on all the lies and fraud they do??? NO sorry NOT OK. AS there would not be a crime called ((Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress))
Joyce, you said you have a private list? I was wondering if I could send you a private e-mail or you to me as mine is listed below of a name of someone, who has been doing this for years. They are all over google. I got death threats because of them, I did a police report. I get Facebook threat message so on, because I was trying to find other victims, as I DID, but there are other who are protecting them too, as they could be is some cult of deception. Let me know if I can give you the name or not as I would understand. Thank you kindly :))
I maintain a private list of people who were complained about. The reason I do so is to pass information to the authorities in the event that a case goes to court . If I receive an inquiry from law enforcement, I would send the information to them, but not to the public.
I too am a healing victim and have added the man who has completely destroyed my sense of trust and hope and is still trying to prey on my by withholding our divorce papers, on and on as Joyce explained above they are mindless and emotionless but ONLY GET THEIR KICKS AND thrills thru manipulation to the I would be crying on the floor begging for forgiveness and ending up having to sexually gratify him to find relief from his mental abusive nature and bullying. He would even withhold food by cooking things he knew I couldn’t eat, then when I was able to eat started gaining weight inexplicably until I found he was added weight enhancers to my food. By the time I escaped I was 180lbs very ill and desperate to find safety. I ran 5 thousand miles leaving behind a life I’d built over 25 years to start again with nothing. But now I have my family and eventually finding my strength and confidence. I now weigh my normal weight and am gradually healing inside and out. I’m sure Joyce will point out the link for her list.
I’m happy to hear you’ve been able to break away from a toxic circumstance and are on the mend.
It takes a great deal of strength. Good for you!
You can input the information on the CAD Suspects page of this blog. All the information comes directly to my email address and does not get disclosed to the public. But listing the information could help another victim if they bring a case against the violator to the police.
Hi Joyce, on your site you had a place we could tell you in secret of a name of a Narc. and there 411, who has a track record of fraud lying con and mentally mind raping with abuse. Do you still have that? And if the name came up more then once of different people who were victims of the same Narc. Would you contact the victims, if they wanted to know if there where other victims?? On the Narc. support forum I am on. We have talked about this. As some say to out them, others say to have private list of victims to find each other and they can do something as a group. Not public for safety reasons. I think you or someone who works with you should do it. Like LoveFraud or something. Thank you for all you do.
I keep a private list. If a name came up more than once, I’d let the victims know and ask if they’d like to be put in touch with each other. You can email me at StopRomanceScams@yahoo.com.
I have great dislike for the concept of making a business out of other people’s misfortune. For that reason, I don’t charge for advice, “therapy,” or any other support services. But if folks would like to purchase my book, I think they’d find it valuable, it supports the message, and sustains the efforts I make to bring this crime to the public.
Thank you Joyce. I joined on Face Book icheckmates.com. I wrote them too and they give me some tips. http://www.DONTDATEHIMGIRL.COM http://www.CHEATERSRUS.COM http://WWW.LIARSANDCHEATERS.COM.
Predators do not have a mental illness of needing meds. They have a illness of missing a soul and having to much EGO. The sicko Narcissistic psychopath sociopath, are men or women who have been doing this for years. When we are in this horrid story relationship, WE have no clue what is going on with us. Then when we start seeing and connecting to Red Flags, WE, thanks to you and many have answers to our questions of the Whys.
I met my Narc.on Craiglist years ago before it got really bad. Many of these sickos are writing many to see who writes them back, as to this day I see many of the same men or women on these free dating sites that have the same photo up for years. They are predators. So when I got smart on to this is messed up thing with my Narc.. I put an ad on CL on the men looking for women side. The Title was To women from a woman, do you know this man. In 3 months I had 22 women write me of being involved with him or contacted by him. So him doing this for over ten years and having a sex text phone. Abusing his gf and she gets involved with him in hurting the women too. AS he is a 21 century Charles Manson. Even though he may not of held a gun to our head or hurt us psychical, He and She mentally mind F*** us to mental abuse. I was trying to find other victims, as some of his victims could of been so taken by him, that after he discarded them, they could be suicidal or hurt themselves. Thank you kindly Healing Victim
As you can see, I’ve eliminated the book you recommended from your comment.
I rarely eliminate information people supply, but in the case of that specific book, I simply don’t chose to lend my support. A great deal of their blog has been copied from my site and my book without credit to me. I find it unconscionable for people to do so.
You are correct in how predators operate. Only laws to stop sexual assault by false pretense or false personation will create a difference. While books can help people understand the nature of the beast, only laws will make them stop.
oh I did not know that. Did you read the book too? I know many quote, Sam V. book. Well, I have posted your book twice on the Forum I am on and to look you up and the law. Thrive After Abuse. The old name was Narcissistic Support. Dana is very very humble and she has a very soft way of talking to people. Us members on the forum help each other mostly to support each other. It crushes my heart as yours, hearing the stories and the hurt of victims who are in the confusion Mental Mind F*** stage. I am on year two. They say, after you find out the Whys and know what you are dealing with. The healing is average of two years. I believe it is harder if the abuser is a family member or ex you were married too. Once a week she has a live stream on Youtube and FB. She has had two live talks with
RICHARD GRANNON SPARTANLIFECOACH. Do you ever do talks about your book? If so maybe check out her site or forum and see if she calls to you and maybe you can be a guest on her live stream. We have a monthly book club too I am going to buy your book and read it, as I have not yet. Thank you so much for helping this cause. Kindly Healing Victim
It does take a significant period of time to heal after you’ve been sexually abused. And anyone who’s been in a sexual relationship with someone who lied and betrayed them, indeed, was sexually abused.
Not only is marriage a huge complication, but when you have a child together, those complications can last an entire lifetime.
When it happened to me, there was no internet, and very little information on the subject. I struggled to recover and found my way on my own. By researching and writing my story, I hoped to provide the guidance that was missing to help others heal.
The only book written that spoke about rape by fraud was extremely dry, written by an attorney, and difficult to relate to.
I hoped that by sharing my story, I could put a name to the behavior in a way that enabled people to begin to converse about it, understand it, and see how it applied to them personally.
I applaud the other authors who have something unique to add to the conversation. I have problems with those; however, who behave as if they’re therapists and charge victims when they have no professional credentials.
People need support systems to heal from defilement. And it’s very difficult to come by because it’s still a greatly misunderstood topic.
To my mind, the greatest benefit to society is to create changes in penal code to prevent romance scams from taking place. In the process of creating those laws, society will become aware of the grotesque pain that victims suffer, and there will be far greater understanding.That’s why I devote my energy and time to focusing on the law and identifying why sexually assaulting someone by defrauding them is a crime.
I thank you for any efforts you make to help spread the word!
And yes, I’ve read the book you mentioned and Sam V’s.
NO make up is NOT about a person going to manipulate you emotionally with intent and others to feed their addiction of using you as a drug…WE are talking about emotional abuse..with INTENT…How someone is treating you, NOT just a booty call or one night stand…it is a relationship, a connection sharing trust believing, AND the other person who is doing the fraud, is mentally tricking you on purpose to get what they want…THEY have a skill of doing this women and men. Narcissist….YOUTUBE Sam Valknin or Narcissistic Support do your homework.
Right wing blogs are characterizing this effort as something that would land a guy in jail if he overstates his income or understates his age. From what I am reading here, when you say cat fishing, you really are talking about the most egregious examples, yes? Or am I wrong on that?
In regards to the make up comment, please tell me that you all take showers before sex, and the makeup comes off beforehand?
And what about plastic surgery? Isn’t that deceptive, unless disclosed? We desire to pass on to our offspring advantageous traits, and a partner (male or female) getting such surgery would deny us that opportunity. There was a legal case out of China for exactly this situation.
As a licensed mental health professional, I feel compelled to reiterate the actual issue here. We are talking about the conscious, duplicitous MANIPULATION or (“mind-fucking”) of another human being to secure sex. This is what makes it rape by fraud in that deceptive, duplicitous means are used to secure a sexual supply with little to no empathy, foresight or regard for the consequences of the duped party.
Let’s move away from the overly concrete, literal interpretation of “rape” and look instead at the psychological dynamics involved. This is the point Joyce Smart has rather exhaustingly tried to convey. There should be consequences for knowingly and willfully tricking another person. A con artist remains a con artist regardless of the intended benefit. Yes, perhaps prison for extreme situations but legal/financial consequences for lesser offenses. I prefer to look at this as being on a continuum of offenses with commensurate punishment.
I cannot begin to write about the psychological and emotional devastation for victims of this kind off behavior. There should be a venue available for justice. The fact that this kind of behavior is normalized, rationalized and justified is what really terrifies me. This kind of morally corrupt interpersonal style has become the norm for many people and cultures. It is time we held ourselves accountable and tried to develop great integrity and a system of ethics that involves needs other than those of the self, only.
Amen Kat, and thank you!
If you’ll look at the language for the “catfish law” that I’ve supplied, I think you’ll see that only significant cases could by tried. People who engage in casual sex, with no due diligence or proof of a scam, (like jumping in bed with someone they just met for a one-night-stand,) could not be prosecuted under the language of the law. There’s no proof, and no “reasonable behavior” on the part of the victim.
For cases that rise to the level of being “prosecutorial,” the Judge could be lenient or could feel that the case warranted “throwing the book” at the offender. That’s true in all convictions, not just for sexual assault by fraud.
You can see by my comment that I am not buying what you’re selling. You are saying that this is intentionally deceptive behavior meant to secure sex, I can understand that. However, isn’t wearing make-up, wearing heels, dying out grays etc also intentional, deceptive behavior? I’ll give a personal example, I met a girl at a bar and after drinks she invited me back to her place. We slept together and the next morning as I was telling her “bye” I noticed that she had no eyebrows. As a gentleman (which this expectation alone is sexist), I overlooked this and left. She brought it up later and we talked about it, normally she paints them on and no one can tell the difference. Was a raped by fraud? Should I file a suit against her? If not, why? What’s the difference between a man lying and a woman lying. Feminism, as I am a feminist, simply calls for equality among the genders. So, that’s what I am calling for here. Would you care to explain?
I already did, and probably over 1,000 times, much of it evidenced here on this blog.
It is unreasonable for a man to assume that a woman is not wearing makeup. Cosmetics and body art date back to pre-historic times. And the man has a remedy he can employ if he is concerned about her appearance. He can simply ask her to wash her face. Hopping into bed with someone you just met will not be considered “reasonable” behavior to a judge and jury whether you’re a man or a woman. So a man who claims to be Brad Pitt’s best friend to hop in the sack with someone he just met would not be prosecuted either.
I used the Brad Pitt example because pretending you’re a doctor is unlawful under any circumstance so it really would not be a fair comparison.
The question here Weston is – if you are so concerned over what rape consists of, then you probably need to take a look into your practices with partners/wife….not many people other than those who have been emotionally raped would be on this site, look it up, unless they have been through it or accused of it…
Logic rules emotion.
Rape through deception is real and it harms people psychologically
If you havent been raped, you wouldnt know what that feels like…
So unless you have had your body harmed through the use of lies, then you probably should never argue the topic of Rape with any woman that has gone through it.
Victims of this type of Rape go through MONTHS if not YEARS over agonizing if it was their fault – the lies, deception, cheating, and schemes.
My Ex Husband filed in court, and order of restraint against ME because I was angry that he would not give me his address bc his car insurance was under MY NAME in the HOUSE HE ONCE LIVED IN…He went in front of a judge to say that HE felt threatened and I didnt know where he lived…that isnt logical nor possible…Luckily the Judge felt the same, and saw that he also file for divorce, asked for me to pay his legal fees AND had a GF he was buying expensive gifts and vacations over…. “So what – men cheat” I get it….within 8 months of divorcing, I found that my ExHusband was involved in a Hit and Run accident, killing a young man of 22. When I heard the news aI Googled it…and there he was in a courtroom, crying the same HOWLS of victimhood he always had when he did something new an illegal behind my back (did I mention the insurance job on our business where I received not a PENNY while I was in bankruptcy due to OUR business….oh yeah my parents took him to court for the money and they LOST)
Back to the Hit and Run…I believed he finally was done with all of his antics…Guess what??? By the grace of God – he got NO JAILTIME..In one of the MOST STRICT states for Hit and Runs (10 yrs mandatory) HE WON AGAINST THE COURT..More likely than not, the mans family probably saw the ‘hurt’ and ‘regret’ in his eyes…and dropped it..it actually made news…and he got off
So…is rape thru deceit possible? Yes, just as possible as it is to get away with murder through lying…people get away with it when they have no conscience and alot of excuses and loopholes
If you need loopholes then you shouldnt engage in crime
Rape via deceit is a crime
And so is murder through lies…any difference? My answer is NOT AT ALL other than we loved our murderer…but noone sees the bruises…being kicked inside out daily for years? Pshhh…thats peanuts. We asked for it…right?
Have a blessed day.
Soooo heartfelt! I’m with you!
It’s amazing what psychopaths get away with!
I questioned my thoughts when I wrote my blog over Divorcing a Malignant Narcissist, because he didnt completely fit the profile – he fit more of a psychopath…and oddly enough when I wrote that blog was only days after it happened (it took me about 6 months AFTER writing that blog that this happened) in my blog I said “these people love court and can get away with murder if they could”….I still get gooseumps when I read it…I cant believe how closely I came to the date of that accident…Id felt enraged about the divorce the day I wrote that. And I had no idea why – it was almost a year later and I simply became angry over how he kept going to courts and fooled me and my family (and his best friend too…and another friend…you get it – they dupe everyone in time)
🙂 Thank you for allowing my vent (it felt good) 🙂
Wow! It gives me goose bumps too!
What I find interesting is how similar all character disordered people are. That’s why I tell folks not to fret about what type of Cluster B demon got their hooks into you. The central character feature they all possess is that they have no conscience and no emotional empathy. No matter what form their disorder takes, NPD, Histrionic, ASPD, or Borderline, depending on the severity of their individual case, they could each justify the most depraved behavior toward people.
Joyce the unfortunate thing about my life is I was raised by a NPD…therefore I always became entangled with them. He bred me to be abused and I never knew why my mother was how she was until I met a man POST MARRIAGE who was just like DAD
These people violate you daily. Ive had PTSD, Severe Anxiety, Panic Attacks, suicical thoughts, all because they felt they had to lie…sometimes even when it was a simple truth..theyd lie…
Now I am single for the first time in many years…Its a slow process. But these are manipulators – they aim to make you a puppet. Nothing more. Break you til you either die or commit suicide. I feel for women who dont understand or believe this is simply a ‘player’ – cluster Bs are rapists, pedophiles, and molesters. These are the same personality type that came for us…. I wish people knew more about the disorder to truly make it the equivalent to rape – but how do you prove to a Judge that your soul was raped? It’s so difficult and bizarre and they are so calculated….Red Flag: If he makes you feel insecure with little slights…RUN….he erodes your esteem first…then all else follows once idealization phase is complete. They have a handbook. its scary.
YES WITH INTENT OVER AND OVER, NARCISSIST MOSTLY
Many women and men who are cheaters are rapist and should be locked up. They should be charged a DOUBLE OFFENSE if they are being dishonest to their spouse and their affair partner. They should have felonies on their records and be added to the sex offender list. We should also allocate X amount of money of valuable tax payer dollars to imprison these people.
THERE IS A SITE LIARCHEATERUS.COM…Narcissist Psychopaths fit in this category and to be fare….There has to be a history of on going abuse with intent….Mentally mind raping is hard to understand, but it is a true occurrence, when done by someone who is a deviant of hurting others for their gain and amusement.. I believe civil payment and they have to be committed to get mental help…24/7….I got mentally mind fucked with sex and lies and on going abuse of emotional hurting me. I have spent time, money, therapy, meds, being a victim of other victims, who are protecting this man…why ohh he is so good in bed…and it sickens me…THAT these women do not know the truth of him…I have outed him on CL….then I had met his GF…she does nothing to stop him or make him accountable…Why he has money and a job high up and all over Google…. I have tried to find other victims….Yes we need a victim abuse website….that would be good…as there are more victims of an abuser, more of a case against him…,,,then more of a case that they are doing this with INTENT….PEOPLE DIG DEEPER HERE…IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT fake boobs, small manhood, a lie about religion,,,or how you look with or without your make up…IT is someone who is preying on people over and over…with INTENT….
I’m so sorry about your troubles and hope that you’re on the mend! Sharing this concept and working with the legislators in your area to get a laws enacted over this crime, will make a meaningful difference!
The “make-up” argument is simply put forward by people without emotional empathy, clarity or grasp. When a person acts in a “reasonable fashion,” and that’s not just me talking, that’s criminal law throughout the US, and they are harmed, a crime took place. It is not “reasonable behavior” to expect a woman would not be wearing makeup.
It is “reasonable behavior,” however, to expect that a person would tell you the truth about their name, their religion, etc. To think otherwise, one would have to believe that the world is comprised of liars. Being that cynical is not “reasonable behavior.”
Not all cases of rape by fraud can be prosecuted. They don’t all pass the “reasonable behavior” test, and there is simply no proof. But when a person is lied to for the intent of tricking them to have sex, a crime is taking place, whether prosecutorial or not. Certainly serial offenders should be prosecuted. But no one has the right to do this to another living, breathing soul… not even once.
Ms, Short our jail systems are not very good…Do you know how much it cost us tax payers to have someone in Jail? Example, Say for some reason if I did NOT pay a ticket and I was taking to jail, It would cost the people more money to have me in jail then to have me pay the ticket? If you are doing white collar crime, vers criminal crimes there is Special treatment. The jail systems our making BANK. OUR jail system are NOT being run very well. IT has the best health care, you can get a degree in jail, if you are homeless you’re set. Nothing is forced or taught in jail, as going to church therapy groups 12-step meetings. Most is of choice. So most come out and then what??? NO jobs for them. They are on the system again and they still have a mind of a criminal. A very high percentage. So okay MY A.H. goes to jail, then what? Rape by sexual assault or mental rape by mind fucking me….Two very different cases…He goes to jail for 6months then what, comes out AND??…Peta-files….OHHHHHH I think they should all be in the same jail and go at it on themselves.. This is NOT so cut and dry. Mental abuses they say is worse then physical abuse. I say both are bad. This law is very delicate of how it is coming across and how it shows up as a crime. AS if a man is married to more then one women a long time crime in the books. EVERYBODY LIES….. It is the PATTERN and HISTORY OF someone selling you a FAKE them, and What they did to you and how did you suffer. If my A.H. was just some guy cheating on his GF, Hey shit happens, BUT my A.H. isn’t just cheating He has a whole scam and it has been going on for years. MOST OF What we are finding out now IS because of Social Media, I found out from his GF facebook She I believe is a criminal herself, and she is suffering from Stock-home syndrome. She enables him, as she know everything and does nothing to hold him accountable. I told her if some poor young women Kills herself over him and his lies,,,IT is blood on your hands. …..Some women are okay having sex with a man NOT single. or if they find out…Oh well, BUT the ones like me, were very much manipulated with his Bringing me into his life, selling a story, making me believe I was special so on. AT the time I was involved with him, I was involved with one other man, and dated one other man. ( this was after a year of him being not so available and undelivered promises) NEITHER men, were texting me every day and sending me selfies I miss you and so on. The one I dated, was still involved with So called Girl Friend….He told me….I told him, YOU are NOT available, so our dates were just friendly I kissed him once. BUT he told me the truth. So I had a choice to make…So that is the different. HE intentionally wanted me to care for him, more then just having fun. He was a good man with integrate, morals, compassion A great actor and Gigolo he was
A victime had therapy today and fixed spelling :)0
A healing victim-
As ordinary citizens, there is very little a victim can do about making improvements to the prison system. I agree with you that something should be done to address a person’s criminal mentality while they’re incarcerated. But I wouldn’t even hazard a guess as to what that would look like. And the fact that prisoners are not rehabilitated properly should not keep us from punishing law breakers.
Prison is designed to be punitive. And while human nature enables us to try to make the best of a bad situation, I doubt that most people would want to go to jail if given the choice. So the possibility of going to jail is, in fact, a deterrent.
Someone who sexually assaults others deserves to go to jail. If they valued their freedom, they’d have to change their behavior. And their victims deserve justice.
The standard is God’s and both parties are violators of his righteous decree.. They both consented to premarital sex… So they’re both guilty of the same crime …. That is a double standard if there was money involved one party gave it willingly unless there were arrangement to pay it back😝😝😝 imprisonment??? REALLY?? Why did you believe him or her??? Why did you give your consent?? You were lied to Gos gave you protection in his word… You made a mistake move on you want him or her imprisioned??? To add to the torment if their already sickened mind?? 🙊🙊🙊
You are confusing “consent” with “assent.” Someone who is lied to is incapable of “consent.” The best they can do is provide “assent” which is not viable “consent” under this or any other law.
How about not commiting fornication and you can greatly reduce the risk of these unfortunate circumstances… Lets get married before we engage in any sexual conduct… Rape by fraud its to broad A woman\man can easily fabricate any story and bring charges against an innocent party… Im not defending sexual predators who beat and subdue women they shouldBe prosecuted to the highest extent of the law however this the new proposal is outrageous and irrespective of what the Penal Code suggests it is my firm belief that this can be a very crippling devastating law.. My 18 year old son can fabricate a lie to appease his lustful habbits by fabricating some liecand now his record is tarnished for it??? Forever?? Thats why i encourageHim to abstain from any sexual activity and please married but in the event that he doesn’t he shouldn’t have to suffer for it because he fabricated some story
Laws on fornication flew by the wayside long ago. In other words, fornication, sex outside the bounds of marriage, is no longer a crime in the US. While you may be able to preach the merits of abstinence, lack of abstinence is no excuse for raping someone.
Rape by fraud law is not easy to prosecute. No matter the crime, people can be unjustly charged. We don’t fail to arrest thieves who steal money, even though the alleged victim’s claims could be false. If there is insufficient evidence that a crime took place, the police won’t arrest. The Prosecutor won’t prosecute. The Grand Jury won’t indict. And the jury won’t convict. Yes, there are rare instances when all those cogs in the judicial process are broken and things go wrong, but we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water and stop arresting thieves or murderers because they do. We should not fail to recognize sexual assault when it happens.
BTW- if your 18 year old son fabricates a lie to “appease his lustful habbits,” he deserves to have his record tarnished. You need to teach him that lying to secure sex is devastating to the victim. It is a sexual assault, not seduction.
7 years of living with a sociopath whose late wife committed suicide because of his deceptions, I started cutting myself, became a prisoner in my own home, because this man was so practiced after 37 fiances all prostitutes and hundreds of other women over a 30 year period as an engineer on cargo ships, I didn’t find out about any of it because all of his friends and family lied for him and he was so self absorbed he told me his life was an open book and no secrets until I actually consented to marry him and I found his trophies, pictures, videos and literally came close to commuting suicide myself.
It’s a very long and disturbing story and I believe he has actually committed murder as well, the suicide of his wife is suspicious on many levels, I ran away from him three times while living in the UK, and when I did finally get my hands on my own car keys once to disappear he had the police chasing me as dangerous and assaulting him, he had bruises on his neck where I had to grab him to avoid being thrown backwards on stairs, I was forced to a stop by police, said I had to go to hospital for assessment, I said I had right to refuse they told me if I did I would end up in jail, it just gets worse from there.
My husband conned my best friend, an ex husband, to move in with him when I finally escaped back to the USA. Husband went to a 27 week abuse program so I would agree to see him for one month, my ex, his roommate was coming with him to be with his family, and at age 47 was found dead in his bed in my husband’s house from natural causes? This happened three weeks before they were due to travel.
I was in shock and mourning for my dear friend, my husband came to “visit” showed me false std test papers, and I awoke one morning feeling my head being twisted on my neck, my husband feigned a bad dream but he was calling me bitch, calling my name, and doing everything he could to break my neck until I screamed. My parents were in same hotel as we all took a break together……. He only stopped and started crying it was bad dream he’d never hurt me he loved me too much blah blah and the shame I’d let him back into my life kept me quiet.
I still have not recovered from 8 years of hell shame, and the feeling of filth that clings to me. And no one can understand, but take this as fact, shipping companies do in depth socio psychological testing on deep sea mariners prior to hiring and they cover they’re butts by telling the applicant they need counselling and help BUT THEY SEEK OUT AND HIRE BORDERLINE AND SOCIOPATHS for a reason, because they don’t care who they leave behind, and they don’t care about damage they do and love the anonymity of the sea to kill, rape children and go home to punish their significant others until they go back to sea again.
Is there a statue of limitations and how do I convince police in UK what happened to me? I do have letters where he admits the abuse, orally raping me sitting on my chest and finally completed the act when I passed out because I couldn’t breath and rolled off of me told me to stop coughing and make coffee……. I have volumes…… Please please somebody take this seriously, the poor girls he left in seedy hotel rooms with condoms stuffed down their throats, death follows him. What do I do? And how do I recover. Fifteen years of abuse by a pedophile was nothing compared to what I have suffered as an adult.
Good Lord! You’ve been through a terrible ordeal! My heart goes out to you!
The most important focus for you right now, is your personal safety and recovery. I know how important validation is to you, and seeking it through the authorities is unlikely to provide what you need. Dr. Christina Louis de Cannonville, in Ireland, enlightens Therapists on treatment for Sociopathic Abuse. If you have yet to locate a good therapist to help you, I suggest you speak with her for a recommendation in your area. She may know someone with this specialty.
Police are loathe to involve themselves in abuse unless the offender is about to hit you over the head with a two by four. Certainly the trail of deaths that seem to follow this man should raise a red flag, and reporting what you believe to be his wrongdoing may protect his next victim, but it is unlikely to bring you justice. You should try to see your attempt to report him as a way of preventing further harm. But as a means of recovery and getting balance back in your life, therapy is more likely to benefit you. But be sure to put your trust in someone who understands sociopathic abuse and does not try to blame or shame you in any way.
Please keep me informed of your progress. You’ll be in my prayers.
Hi Joyce, just relied to other post. I am formulating a way of notifying the authority’s. I’ve lost everything I built over 25 years in England by finally escaping back home to usa. I actually convinced myself that if I stayed with him, I might save a life. But my children and family don’t deserve that. I found your site by researching and trying to find someone I can reach out to, a retired homicide or major crimes officer who could help me grease the doors of the shipping company, and how to approach interpol to see if they have reports of patterns of death in ports he was in and I know how be killed his wife, it wasn’t suicide. No one can suicide on amytripiline with an autopsy showing 70 undigested tablets in her gut, and she was found NAKED on her bed, come one no woman would want to be found that way, MT was supposedly at sea, but the house was spotless, all sheets cleaned ironed and folded away and no excrement or urine on bedding, the window was left open in the dead of winter. Amytripiline is hypnotic by nature in large doses and I can see him feeding them to her every hour or so with one final large dose watch her die, being ocd as well he would face cleaned up. Like I said she was naked on top of a newly washed and made bed. MT phoned the family and said your mom, friend whatever doesn’t want visitors she just wants some peace (after being committed and let home by his command) and her son was happy to oblige because MT gave him money and son hated dealing with his mother’s mental instability. MT writes are resend a card to himself to the ship ftom her and there she lays, no heart, freezing conditions, and lastly she had a longstanding weekly hair appt. Which is only reason she was found, hairdressers called her son and he discovered her. I think my husband forgot about the hair appt and didn’t expect her to be found so soon, because when they found her he was less than 7 days into his trip. I could write a book. But this again I am sure is true, because in anger and only when I got him so angry he couldn’t think he just reacted was when truths would come rolling out or denials and the louder and more vicious the denials I knew I was right. Anger was bis only TRUE AND HONEST AFFECT as well as his hatred of my intelligence, but he to this day won’t let me go.
Thanks again for letting me vent. You and others can find me on Facebook. Lete know if I should post my name here.
John, think of all the crimes that are for jail time or life in prison, HOW much it cost us the tax payers to have someone in jail, and what happens when they get out??? Of course I want justice, BUT there can be other ways for them to pay for their crimes, other then putting them in jail. Think….If you got raped physically vers your GF was cheating on you, or you met a women who was living a double life and scamming you. Two very different crimes. in many states if their is a divorce over cheating, that gets the other person more money. In my situation I wanted civil lawsuit, BUT if I won, it would be hard to get the money, and I would of lost money paying to have the lawsuit. I would of wanted my A.H. to be in a 24/7 mental therapy hospital and do community service. AS he is a rich bastard working as Mr. President as a big shot high position…He is all over Google, and women are finding out about him, then they contact his GF. Ugly drama. His GF enables him, as if she left him, all her goodies would be gone, but she is at hand allowing him to keep Exploiting women…So shame on her too!!!!! I am just saying think about how the crimes and jail system works. And what other means of justice are there..
If this were ever made law the vast majority of people of both genders I’ve met in my lifetime will be behind bars or paying fines. This website is a joke and the entire concept is absurd. Both genders routinely seduce each-other for sex or to manipulate a relationship. Seduction of any kind therefore becomes a criminal act. Illegally hijacking gametes to create illegitimate children, and a multitude of other crimes. It will become a crime to possess Make-up as they only serve to misrepresenting yourself. If you wear concealer or base makeup, high heals or a push-up bra, shoulder pads in jackets… these items will be possessed and you will be fined. These are all devices used to abet a crime according to this site definitions as they create a false persona. Therefore all these objects and more will be outlawed. Nail polish, plastic surgery, any type of clothing which creates a visual illusion to manipulate others into thinking something that’s not a fact about the person wearing these items. This will also force all states to DNA test all children to ensure neither parent has been “raped”. Criminal prosecution by the state will be mandatory for all false rape charges as libel and jail citizens who use a male to have a baby without telling him first. I will assure you that we will make the first amendment to any laws introduced like this “Irreparable emotional damage coupled with; Gamete theft and DNA replication without consent; with intent to financially blackmail victims for 18 years.”
Your last name isn’t TRUMP by any chance, is it?? In my opinion the only absurdity on this site is your distorted logic in understanding these very elementary legal and psychological concepts. I’m hearing that you have used manipulation before to obtain sex…who screwed you??
As a man of reason im inclined to agree with mr trump🙈🙈… People manipulate circumstances and lie to achieve to gratify their sexual desires aT
The time I’ve had women say they love me use me and LEAVE!! Was I sore sure but I got clear instructions on the situation..No sex before marriage… This will settle things in 95% of these cases sex is reserved for married couple’s..not humans in heat🙊🙊🙊… An expression of love between two people Who Almighty God has put together… How is someOne tricked or coerced into having sex..?? Did. He tell you he loved you?? Maybe he\she did at the time maybe he\she doesnt know what love is.. Did he/she promise you a trip or money something in exchange??? If its money than everyone should be jailed… If its a gift ,prestige , anything material Then we need to assess our moral compass For those who have been lied to about starting families My heart goes out to you but i urge you to not engage in pre marital sex… You will be lied over and over again.. Listen to the word of God… Besides men\women are dog’s its rough out there be blessed my friends😘😘😘
First off- Donald Trump was charged with rape by his first wife. I wouldn’t be so quick to use him as an example.
Secondly- Even people who are married can be living a lie. False pretense and false personation are principally lies that distort the person’s identity. In India, however, a failure to carry out a promise to marry can lead to a rape by fraud charge. There are several cases of that sort that are currently being litigated, even as we speak. If a person promises to marry while covering up that they are not free to make that commitment, indeed, there is proof that their intent was false. There is a marriage license in place as they made their false commitment.
While a person can, indeed, change their mind about loving someone or not loving them, you can’t simply change your mind about whether you are married or not; therefore, hoodwinking your way into a sexual relationship by pretending you will marry someone can be prosecutorial.
Expecting integrity in sexual relations should not be such a tough stretch for society. It is a sad commentary on the morality that prevails in the modern world, that folks have difficulty with this law. It will make the world a little less “rough out there.”
Joyce, if you believe in the American justice system then being charged with something is not the same as being convicted. The Duke lacrosse team was charged with rape. But, as circumstances have it, the accuser admitted that she was lying the whole time. Are they still rapists by default? Brian Banks was charged with rape. The accuser admitted she was lying. The Rolling Stones rape case. She was lying. Are they all rapists by default? Of course not. I am also not hinting that all those who accuse people of rape are liars, this is not the case.
I am not a Trump supporter, but I think it’s vitally important that facts remain as such and are not distorted to fit a specific agenda.
And people are exonerated from crimes they committed as well.
Laws determine proof, not truth. A guilty verdict only indicates whether there is sufficient proof for a finding of guilt. It does not actually indicate whether the person in fact committed the crime.
Your entire claim is absurd and shows how out of touch you are with the concept of “consent.”
It is the law in several states, and others use various parts of it as the lawmakers at the time saw fit. For example, in 8 states, a man can claim a “rape by fraud” defense against a charge of statutory rape if a child lied about their age. But the same lie, when told by an adult does not get treated the same. In several states, if a man pretends that he’s the husband of the victim, rape by fraud is charged…. but if he pretends that he’s the fiance or lover of the victim, they are not.
The same principle applies in all cases. If you use “false personation” to secure permission, you are not securing consent. You are not seducing the person, you are assaulting them.
It is rare for a woman in western culture to not wear makeup, therefore, a man is not behaving like a reasonable person by assuming that she is not.
When people lie to attract someone, they are responsible for clearing up those lies BEFORE they have sex with them. Failure to do so, relying on lies to get past the person’s gates, is a sexual assault.
Thank you for the clarification. That is helpful, Thank you. But I still disagree. You’re giving examples regarding specific instances of underage sex, and Adultry. Those circumstances change the entire situation. Its not an “apples to apples” comparison and its not the political aim of this site from what I see.
You seem to be reading this backwards. The crime of rape by fraud carried out by the child is not statutory rape. It is rape by fraud. If someone tells you their age incorrectly, they are using “false personation” to secure your consent. That is the one and only premise by which the charge of “rape by fraud” can be made against the child who lied. If a child lying is rape by fraud, an adult lying is also rape by fraud. Rape by fraud is indecent for everyone to perform, not simply for children to perform.
The Old Testament states that men who have sex with a “betrothed” are adulterers, therefore, pretending to be the fiance of the victim is just as criminal as pretending to be the husband.
Initially, all rape was a crime against the man who was the “master” of the female, not the female victim. In fact, in Rome, it was a capital offense against the head of the household and the convicted offender was put to death. Today, our laws recognize that the person who was harmed is the victim, not their male “owner.” The fact that the male was adultered against has no weight in today’s laws. It’s the crime against the female victim, (or the male victim,) that serves as the basis for rape charges.
The first issue you mentioned is an Age of Consent issue that needs to be dealt with, not a rape. There was a level of consent in both parties that allowed sexual intimacy to occur. The second paragraph just speaks to historical rape that has no direct bearing on current legal precedent regarding REAL rape.
I think the confusion here is the word rape itself and this sites endeavor to redefine that word. I’ve noticed an increasing number of special interests groups in the last ten years try to redefine words. When they cannot win the debates using standard English dictionaries they simply fall back on the tactic of redefining standard words or terms, or creating new terms. These redefinitions are never altered in actual English dictionaries (Thank God!)
n. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
Just to clarify. This refers to one human physically restraining or incapacitating another human being then forcible using their body for sexual acts.
To try and invent a new law or term entitled “rape by fraud” is not only dishonest and obviously politically motivated, it also diminishes the suffering that actual rape victims experience. Like Prison Rape, or brutal rape in dark city alleyway where the victims many times die, are murdered or are left in such shock that they become catatonic and requires months of rehabilitation from their injuries.
Its up to each party involved in a sexual union to ensure to the best of their ability whats going on. This applies to ANY situation. Buying gas at a gas station (are they selling me pure gas or ethanol??), buying food at the grocery store (label ingredients are frequently (legally) obscured aka Evaporated cane juice AKA Sugar, ‘Natural Flavors’ etc.), buying a new car, signing a lease contract, agreeing to watch someones pets while they’re on vacation. In many of these examples fraud can be a factor, but its certainly nothing like an actual rape. You got suckered, conned, whatever you want to call it. BUT you CANT call it RAPE.
If my IQ is too low to understand, research or deduce that evaporated cane juice is just another name for sugar I don’t really have a claim to fraud.
And there’s not one iota of evidence you can supply me that will make me believe that a victim of the fictitious “rape by fraud” you propose has , can or ever will suffer in any way shape or form that is similar to what actual rape victims experience. To try and advocate this point of view and equate it with ACTUAL rape is doing a great disservice to all citizens, Men and Women.
Your term “rape by fraud” assumes there was , at some point, Consensual sex. It all hinges on the post coitus information. Some time after the sex occurred one party regrets that event and looks for a lie so they can then abuse the legal system, or learns later that they were lied to about something in particular makes them feel used or conned or “played”. This isn’t rape, this is regret and is sometimes followed by guilt.
Rape itself is already beginning to be laughed at as a crime in modern times by many people. Mainly because of the insanely high false accusations that have occurred over the last 30 years (corroborated by the FBI) coupled with the many convicted rapists who have now been exonerated due to DNA evidence. Now you propose to muddy the already clouded waters further by introducing even more vague and meaningless definitions and laws into an already broken system.
You obviously did not dig very deeply into penal code to quote the definition you choose. And it likely came from a dictionary, not criminal code. Misconception written as authority is one of the big problems society faces in coming to grips with what actually constitutes rape. Don’t believe me? Here’s the first clause in the ItsOnUs Pledge endorsed by President Obama, NY State Governor Cuomo, and thousands of others: “NON-CONSENSUAL SEX IS SEXUAL ASSAULT.”
You also don’t seem to understand the difference between an “aggravated” crime, and a crime that does not involve violence. Just because you’re not violently assaulted does not mean the person who defrauded you of money didn’t harm you.
The concept of rape by fraud is not new. It’s recognized in the penal code of several states, but not applied evenly, across the board. Penal codes discriminate about applying the concept. Many states apply it when a man is raped by fraud. They recognize its existence to defend a man’s heinous behavior. But they fail to apply the concept when women are harmed.
The fact that you don’t understand how rape by fraud harms a person reflects that you lack emotional empathy and have no respect for a person’s self determination over their body. I can’t, no matter what words I use, explain the defilement a victim feels, or express all the grotesque and varied impacts it has on disparate people’s lives. If there were not something especially heinous about performing a sex act without the person’s consent, there would be no rape laws at all. Even violent rape would not be rape. It would simply be assault. The world has long recognized that there is something very different about breaking your arm, and assaulting your sex organs. One is an assault. The other is a sexual assault, (or rape depending on what state you live in.)
You obviously don’t get it. You obviously lack emotional empathy. You obviously have a character disorder and nothing I say to you will change that. We’re done.
“It is rare for a woman in western culture to not wear makeup, therefore, a man is not behaving like a reasonable person by assuming that she is not. ”
^ This makes broad sweeping generalizations about Men in general and is quite Misandric. In addition there are dozens if not HUNDREDS of make-up brands and products that are sold with the specific intent of creating the illusion that no makeup is being worn at all. As most men I know don’t wear makeup or keep up with cosmetic trends most men are not aware of this. The entire creation of cosmetic makeup is to “Conceal”, “Hide”, or misrepresent. Same as push-up bras, padded shoulders and many more common everyday items used by people to deceive others. Whether the deception is malicious or not is neither here nor there, the simple fact is It is deceptive.
Laws will not protect you from your own failure to use reasonable judgement. If you want to know what a woman looks like without her makeup, simply ask her to take it off before you have sex with her.
BTW- both men and women use appearance enhancements. And I’d tell you the same thing if you asked me about a man wearing a toupee or lifts in his shoes. It’s not misandric, it’s simply common sense. Makeup, padded bras, etc, can all come off before you have sex. If it’s important to you, ask for their removal.
This is absurd. If this is the kind of future you propose sex will only occur in a sterile room after both parties have signed contracts, in front of witnesses and told each-other their entire life story and shared medical exams and genetic tests from 23andme. Even THEN you wouldn’t be safe from accusations or claims of “Rape by fraud”.
Obviously, you don’t know how to be truthful in your romantic relationships. Glad I’m not one of the targets you pursue.
Donald, there is a reason why no one takes this new “Third Wave Feminism” seriously. This ‘rape by fraud’ or ‘air conditioning is sexist’ or ‘giving birth is rape’ or ‘every man is a predator’ or ‘man-spreading’ or ‘man-splaining.’ It’s all utter non-sense and now that women are speaking out against it, it’s losing steam. Christina Hoff Sommers, Helen Smith, Kate Andrews, Michelle Malkin to name a few.
The truth is, according to a Harvard Ph.D. and female economist, there is no wage gap. Women in their 20s make more than their male counterparts, women have higher rates of university attendance and graduation and make higher grades, women have a 2-1 chance of being hired in the STEM fields when compared to men and the list goes on and on.
So, what happens? These new feminists, these extremists, hijack the process and find new ways to yell “sexism.” Be it the AC is too high or this rape fraud nonsense or stretching the definition of rape to include unwanted kissing (this could be an goodnight kiss after a date – is chivalry dead?). What happens is these extremists not only sound like idiots to the general public, but they in fact make matters worse for women. The good news for society is that this is dying out. Like the KKK and Black Panther Party, there is no room in a modern, developed society for extremism. When they send a law to the legislature or protest they alienate themselves from the rest of society. When a woman is on Youtube or the news talking about AC’s being sexist or how giving birth is a form of rape…..it’s more of a comedy skit than news and now even women are catching on.
Also, as you did, when you reply to a feminist extremist with a counter argument they frequently resort to insulting you as a person instead of addressing your concern. You’ll notice Joyce attacked your character, another referred to you as Donald Trump (which one could surmise as an insult) this type of personal attack, according to an old university politics professor of mine, is the indication that you have won the debate and they have lost.
Lumping so many issues you oppose together, is nothing more than a device to conceal a real issue in a cloud you have deemed contemptuous behavior.
You should be more discerning.
While some things are more far fetched than others, some are not. Just because it comes from a woman’s mouth does not make it a “feminist” issue. Sexual assault by fraud affects men as well as women. You fail to grasp that reality. Don’t think so? Ask Zach Anderson who was jailed because a female lied to him about her age.
“Laws will not protect you from your own failure to use reasonable judgement.”
^ QED. That’s golden. Thank you. I rest my case.
When a person vititates your understanding by tricking you into sex, and that trickery is beyond a level that a reasonable person could figure out under those same circumstances, they would be convicted, (and they are being convicted,) of rape by fraud in many parts of the world, except in the US. There is something very wrong with that picture.
“Laws will not protect you from your own failure to use reasonable judgement. If you want to know what a woman looks like without her makeup, simply ask her to take it off before you have sex with her.”
Hahahahahahahahaha…. ahahahahahahahahahahahaha…. hahaha… haha
I must have laughed a full minute and a half when I had seen you wrote that Joyce. So incredibly hypocritical I could barely believe it. Lets just tweak that quote in a few ways to show why:
Laws will not protect you from your own failure to use reasonable judgement. If you want to know someone’s real name, age and marital status, simply ask them for proof before you have sex with them.
Sound reasonable to me 😉
I know this will come as a huge shock to you…… but practically every woman you lay eyes on, is wearing makeup. Not only would you not be acting like a “reasonable person” to assume she’s not wearing makeup, you would have to be a blithering idiot. In modern society, most women apply their makeup before they step foot out of the house in the morning.
On the other hand, most of society is made up of honest people. When someone tells you their name, their age, their marital status, you would have to be a cynic not to believe them. Acting with disbelief when people tell you things about themselves is not “reasonable behavior.” Believing them is.
Unfortunately, the volume of liars in society is growing into epidemic proportions, particularly on the internet. If we don’t want to see a society of liars, cheaters, and cynics, we need to hold people responsible for their integrity.
The emotional chemistry of another human being is not yours to misuse in order to get laid! It’s as much a part of their physical body as their arm, their leg or their liver. By lying, emotional predators set out to distort and misuse the neuropeptides and hormones that cause attachment in their target’s brain in order to trick them into performing sex acts. It’s not ok!
Our society is becoming grotesquely disfigured. It’s so bad that the Republican front runner for the most presitgeous role in the free world is a grotesque misogynist buffoon that people actually invest with credibility! How sad is that as a commentary about where our society is headed?
When people lie to you AND misuse the brain chemistry that ignites your emotional attachment, to take what they are not entitled to, they are defrauding you of sex, not seducing you.
People who have the last laugh, laugh best……. problem is, you’re really not funny! And you’re displaying a very warped mindset about sexual responsibility.
“It is the law in several states, and others use various parts of it as the lawmakers at the time saw fit. For example, in 8 states, a man can claim a “rape by fraud” defense against a charge of statutory rape if a child lied about their age. But the same lie, when told by an adult does not get treated the same”
^^ Why would an adult get the same treatment? It would be ABSURD!! The issue described here is an “Age of Consent” issue, not a rape. Again, the sex was consensual between both parties. Further, the actual term that many courts have been adopting to describe the crime is “Sex with a minor under the age of consent”. Statutory rape is being abandoned as a legal term more and more each day as more and more attorneys and judges understand that there was no rape, so they call a spade a spade instead of calling it something its clearly not. No rape occurs in the vast majority of these cases so the term is going extinct as well.
The “age of consent” concept applies to the statutory rape charge. Not the “rape by fraud” charge against the child.
The victim of the “rape by fraud” charge when using the concept as a defense, is an adult. And all adults, not just raping men who go after children, deserve to be protected.
Ms. Short….Many of these acts are NOT just one time, it is a pattern where someone is DOING THIS WITH INTENT…MENTALLY MIND RAPING YOU TO GET SOMETHING FROM YOU, WITH OUT YOUR CONSENT….Narcissist covert and others fit in this category of MIND raping you…so bad for so long and you get PTSD have to go to therapy take meds…They are controlling and manipulating deviants LOOKING for a victim they prey on….It can be a friend or a boss a lover a partner….I believe When your rites to make a choice is taken from you, as I do NOT get involved with men in relationships. I was used for cheating, I was used to give and care, I was used to be a drug for a sick man…WHO has a history…ON youtube.com Narcissistic Support I have posted your law twice….Of course there are pros and cons…BUT if someone has a history of hurting over and over with INTENT KEY WORD INTENT….There should be some civil laws of payment or going to a therapy place….ABUSE IS THE WORD WITH INTENT….MENTAL IS JUST AS BAD AS PHYSICAL… Narcissistic abuse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are correct, except it is not simply a civil disobedience. It’s a crime. Yes, you should be able to sue them for the damages they have done to you, your pain, suffering, and the expenses of your therapy to attempt to restore your life, but they should also go to jail for wreaking havoc in your life.
I haven’t commented in a while, but after reading the comments left by Donald I wanted to respond, and carry my story of what happened to me (listed on your home page) a little further. I wanted to express that I do not believe this law is for frivolous lawsuits that waste the time of the courts. I do not believe that people should file claims because they hopped into bed with someone and regret it later. I believe that calling it Rape by Deception automatically scares people off without really understanding what can happen to an individual because of lies, trickery and deceit in order to accomplish whatever the person lying is trying to accomplish. Anyway, I fully understand my story may be unusual, but there are plenty of different scenarios out there that should be considered on a case by case basis. There has been a lot on here about what harm actually was done to “the victim”. We have all heard the saying “For every action there is a reaction” and nobody knows what that reaction will be until it plays out. I wanted a relationship and took my time talking with him, we had what seemed a great deal in common and things were going great. I knew sex would become an issue sooner later and I absolutely did not want to just have sex with someone and never see them again. The whole world wants sex, we are all sexual beings, but everyone has the right to choose who they let into their intimate core and in what capacity. I considered myself smart and talked to him upfront, and did this for his protection as well as my own. He assured me we were great and confirmed that he did not want me to see anyone else, that I was his. Me being always cautious and hesitant I spoke directly and said the following – “I am only looking for a long-term relationship, not a hit and run type thing, I said I do not believe in casual sex and even gave examples from my childhood, I said I am not here just to get laid, and since this was someone I met online, I said I am not looking for someone just going down the list of women, if we are not looking for the same thing I’ve enjoyed talking and having a glass of wine with you, but for me I’m a grown woman who can walk away”. This man was highly intelligent with a master’s in psychology and most people would not be a match for him, he was a skillful predator. I had no idea what he had in mind for me and nobody would have known until it played out. This man knew exactly what he was doing from start to finish and could implement it with the precision of a surgeon, and it was a set-up, not for a relationship, but for something I would never consent to and far more sadistic. I had been “Groomed” the whole time for his grand finale, of what I call “Fright Night”. What I thought was to be a great evening, as I planned and shopped to make it special, took a horrifying turn. This was all admitted to me by him, and not based on assumption. So what was I walking into? I was with a BDSM –Master. He purposely put me under duress to gain control and dominance over me (5’2”, 108 lbs. of me). I had no idea what he was doing and was scared for my life. This was obviously not consensual either as I have no background in the BDSM world. I was now in a “scene” and at his mercy. The Fright, Flight or Freeze had kicked in, and I can’t fight off a first grader, so I froze. He seemed “out of it” and all I could do was play it off and try to make it home. I was not in my car and had to be taken back to mine, on the way back the insults continued, there was not a hug or kiss goodnight kind of thing, but more like get out of my car. I was so uptight that the paper bag I brought scraped against his car door and I apologized all over myself. He left – I threw up. I went home in shock and at least thought I survived and it was over right? Wrong? A phone call would come that would finish me off – his gloating moment included comments such as, “I knew the whole time I was taking advantage of you”, “You are not at the top of my list anymore”, (remember I said I wasn’t looking for someone going down the list of women), “I was not very nice to you and I am with the next “one”, who I guess he didn’t consider to be a human. He even tried to tease me sexually saying he knew he was charming and knew he had built me up to desire him saying “You want to see me don’t you” I told him I didn’t consent to this, he said his hands were lethal weapons, he also threatened harm to my 9 year old daughter in order to keep me quiet. And here is where the harm comes in – I didn’t know it but I was headed towards a trauma so serious that it would try to kill me and left me in complex PTSD. When someone puts you in a situation you don’t consent to, they are not thinking about the consequences of their actions towards “the victim”. I was not blessed with good health, and I have many serious conditions, such as diabetes, multiple sclerosis and heart conditions. Stress and prolonged trauma for me became an issue, shock, denial, disbelief, rage, humiliation, anger took over me daily. One day I collapsed at home with an acute attack with horrifying symptoms and was taken by ambulance to the ER. The inflammation from the stress had built up so bad it tried to kill me. I also had a broken heart at the same time I was dealing with a relationship that wasn’t consensual, a term of the relationship that was not consensual, a type of sex that was not consensual, financial loss, threats, and the ruthless things that came out of his mouth. It was too much and too fast and furious to go from cloud nine, so to speak, to this and the brain can’t process and gets stuck. I was in defilement after defilement after defilement Nevertheless, I am stuck with all of this including the extreme medical bills. He just moves on to the next victim. There are too many horror stories like mine out there and this is why some kind of law needs to be on the books.
Welcome back. I’m so sorry about what you’ve gone through. It’s good of you to disclose that horror so people may begin to understand. And you’re right…. this law is not for frivolous lawsuits. In fact, it’s not for lawsuits at all.
In a civil action, the victim can attempt to get compensated or made whole for their losses. Most offenders have absolutely no intention of providing an apology or restitution. Doing so could make the victim feel, at least, some validation and acknowledgement from the person who harmed them. Since they aren’t getting it from the perpetrator, they hope the courts will provide the means for doing so, and they pursue a civil action… a law suit.
In a criminal case, and that is where rape by fraud charges are tried, the offense must meet certain basic legal criteria. First off, the victim would have had to behave in a fashion that a jury would deem consistent with being a “reasonable person.” So the fact that the offense is tried in criminal court inherently rules out charges in which the person jumped in bed with someone they really didn’t know. If there were a “reasonable” remedy for determining the truth, and the victim simply ignored the remedy, there would be no case. For this reason, when men ask me about women wearing makeup, my eyes roll. All they need to do is ask her to wash her face if it’s important to them.
If a man picks up a woman at a bar, and she goes off with him to have sex on the premise that he’s single when he’s not, she won’t have a case. She simply would not be perceived of having taken “reasonable” precautions to protect herself. Yes, he’s sexually assaulting her. No, he did not do so in a prosecutorial fashion that would lead to his arrest.
There is a difference between committing a crime, and a prosecutorial case. Cases that can be prosecuted would require two important things. In addition to “reasonable behavior” on the part of the victim, there must be ample “proof” on which a case can be based. So if a person lies, but you have no proof that they lied, yes, you were harmed….. but you would not be able to bring an action against the person.
By the very nature of criminal law, rape by fraud charges could only be brought against offenders who go to great lengths to deceive. The police, the Prosecutor and the Grand Jury would all have to agree that the situation is sufficiently prosecutorial to warrant criminal charges.
That being said, however, anyone who lies to get past your gates is sexually assaulting, not seducing you. Will they be tried for it…. probably not…. even though it’s a sexual assault.
There are people who simply don’t get it. You can give them heartfelt examples of how defiled people feel as a result of this behavior, and they’ll still insist that no harm was done to you. They simply lack the emotional empathy to relate to your pain. They can grasp violence, but they can’t understand that your sexual organs are different from anything else on your body. If they weren’t, we would have no rape laws at all. Such assaults would simply be “assaults,” not “sexual assaults.”
Rape by violence is an aggravated form of rape. Rape with no violence is still rape, just not aggravated rape. No one should come anywhere near your sexual organs without your consent, and permission that is induced by deception is “assent” not “consent.”
Nina….I am so sorry…..A monster deviant s&m Narcissist. In my situation…NOT at all like yours. I was NOT looking for a booty call. BUT I did NOT get a man who wanted a relationship. He was looking for a lover/friend. A one…I was part of a harem. Before we got involved we talked a lot to get to know each other, then the second time I was with him, I said if and when you want to meet others so on, let me know so I have a choice if I want to stay or NOT…so other women or full on 13 year relationship, lies…One time I was at his house, while his GF was watching his son, after school. He has a stock of Paris perfume and chocolates to give as gifts, he sends out the same photos and chessey lines to all of US, and holidays too. He uses the word YOU beg to see me, or are you threatening me, or we just met on CL for a few fucks…Then there is I am so happy you are in my life, You are a hard worker, I miss you, (while he is traveling with GF in Europe on business ) so I did my homework and found out He is a Covert Narcissist. I went to CL and put adds on Men looking for Women and had his photo and things about him, time line so on discribing what happened with me, I DID NOT give his name or number or work or living 411. 3 months 22 women wrote me, friends of him and his ex wife, GF friends, lovers, so on. He was warned by his current lovers. He got lawyers after me so on. Then someone outed him FULL on 411 on LiarCheater and 80 responses as it was on google and his name is all over google…BUT after that he went back to his old ways…I pray for his victims, I pray life for him will be over soon, I pray that all I have done, NO harm will come to me, as I got e-mail Death threats, blood gross photos. I did a police report. Nothing can happen, until I get hurt…The detective just called him and asked “do you know who is doing this to her” GF text to me matched many of the e-mails, so if ever a court case, I have saved so much evidence…BUT the issue that would probably be thrown into my face is, YOU could of just ended things, NOT see him anymore, so on…I did do that, that was when he was Love Booming me, Calling me every day, he said he would help with my Therapy bills so on…Anyways, What happened to you, Can you find out if he did or is doing this to others???? as that maybe of help to you. It help me, knowing the other victims. Blessing to you
After reading what you just wrote, I am crying in my heart that you can’t see there is validity in trying to define and find ways to validate the victim and punish the criminal. Something tells me if that painted lady cut off your genitals, maybe you’d understand the depth of violation of deceptions and deprivation of predators.
Lorena Bobbitt, back in 1993, found out that wasn’t such a great idea. She was arrested for dismembering her then-husband, John Wayne. Fortunately, she was found not guilty due to “insanity” causing an irresistible urge. The insanity was PTSD resulting from her husband’s continuous physical and emotional abuse.
In order to prevent vigilantism in which victims feel compelled to take their personal protection into their own hands, there have to be laws to stop the horrors they’re subjected too. And that’s why I’m wholeheartedly pushing for protections that can address the growing rate of defilement from sexual assault by fraud.
I hope you’ve filled out the form on 50 Brave Women, and are ready to take the law to your legislators to prevent further damage.
Joyce I understand, and was simply demonstrating the lack of empathy and idiocy of blaming the victim, and anonymous rationalizing by essentially blaming the victim. It does show what an upward struggle it is for those of us who have suffered. It took me two years to realise, or stop bring blinded by the man I believed I feel in love with that I was one of many in a pattern that had lasted for over 3p years. I posted a portion of my story as a reply to another victim. I wasn’t condoning any form of physical or emotional “revenge” I simply despise erroneous and spurious arguments by some who refuse to accept evil exists, but citing good grooming and pride of appearance as an inducement inviting sexual contact consensual or not. And by arguing that it is a blatant misrepresent, therefore rape by fraud of men just shows what a tough fight this is as with early rape trials where the woman was put on trial, for dressing provocatively and then having the nerve to accuse a man if rape when she so obviously was asking for it. I think I was so disturbed by those comments I reacted less rationally than I could have, and should have given a fuller explanation of how hurtful it is for victims of PTSD of rape by fraud, and then becoming a prisoner of it to see that in black and white by someone who, as rightly observed, outted themselves as ignorant and lacking of any real desire to understand the purpose of your blog, navigating the perilous waters of change. 10 years ago stalkers were considered a joke by police, and getting and enforcing restraint orders without the full support of officials and the courts was costly and potentially dangerous for the petitioner. Domestic abuse was none of law enforcements business. Yes, this is not cut and dry, proof us difficult, but fortunately I was lucky enough to get my husband to document his deeds, using his vain self assurance and confidence in his own ability to lie his way out, if I used the documents. This blog has shown me just what a battle I would have in engaging the local law enforcement where we lived in the UK. When I was actually raped early in my abroad, it took me three weeks just to find a rape support hotline, specifically to help me with the issue of acquaintance rape, then I had to leave a message because the govt removed all funding in our area. No women’s shelters, and when I spoke to Samaritans in the mean time to just keep me sane, they told me reporting it to that particular constabulary would be pointless and useless. They were listed as the worst County in the UK in rape and domestic abuse prosecutions and even worse about convictions. And the was AFTER the SUFFOLK riper serial murders. And as I said before, the dispatcher and two women officers sent to my home when my husband supposedly reported me as missing, were so convinced by his story and his tears and lies they put out a bolo when I simply took my own car to have time away from him, as was sitting at truck stop drinking coffee and crying. And instead of getting me to a safe house until things were sorted, they threatened me with arrest if I walked away from their car, and at the hospital were prepping paperwork to have me committed. No law enforcement anywhere that I know of go searching for an adult who chooses not to be found, and he had the entire County after me. Anyway I’ve gone off on a tangent. Governments must look and law enforcement and the legal community must find a way to close the ambiguous loopholes, and train personel to recognize the psychological damage that can be done by these Don Juan cons, that if they aren’t in it for one night stands but as a platform to torture and destroy lives, and stop laughing behind their hands because it isn’t always a case of being uneducated and vulnerable, but sometimes the most world wise, educated etc of people can fall into these traps and the shame and self depreciation that one is slowly trained to believe and accept is very real and the outcomes are very very ugly and sad. As I said my predessor in that relationship committed suicide. And his first wife sued for divorce based on mental cruelty. This is how insidious he is, two days after burying the woman he presented to me falsely as the love of his life who no one could replace, he was back seducing his first wife and still whoring when he went back to sea for 12 to 18 weeks at a time. What he said about her to me when describing that relationship was foul and ugly, the only reason I learned that he’d been with her right up to meeting is because one of his sisters let it slip. That was the first lie I found out about, and the rest just got worse from there. Anyway, if I can help I would like to. And please forgive me if you or anyone else reading this saw my post as incitement to revenge or physical action. It was simply a poorly worded example to that writer how revolting his comments were. Funnily enough I wonder if abuse counselling would help that particular writer. Thanks for your patience, I’m new to this and am thrilled to have found this forum. I tried to create and am still keeping open, a private back page for survivors of psychological and physical abuse, because I wanted to give those who need to vent or seek help, as you have done here, but in safety from snooping reprisal. Unfortunately I could not invite or advertise the page on Facebook except to make invites to my trusted friends asking them to send anyone who could use moral support to my public page and I will invite them.
Well said, Cathy..
And, by the way, I support your sentiment about dismembering. Just wanted to make clear it was wishful thinking and not something that someone should actually engage in. You never know how you can be implicated for what you write or allow on a blog.
People ask me all the time why I allow those spurious comments to stand. My reason is to demonstrate the horrific level of justification for sexual treachery that exists in society.
If I just allowed people of like minds to write, I’d be preaching to the choir and that would not change anything. When folks like you respond to their ignorance, I hope it makes inroads in impacting their judgement.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated!
All the best!
Joyce, I have a ton of respect for you. And I will also take note about accountability about what one writes. I don’t mean censor myself, but think better before I react next time 😯
To me it is very brave and more to the point heroic on your part to attack this so openly and with strength of character. It takes a lot of strength not to rise to the bait sometimes, and can completely devalue what is important! And it shows an immense sense of honor to ignore the pettiness and answer with patience, even if it has to be in big kid letters and small words to the less enlightened. I think I reacted so viscerally because those comments were basically a daily occurrence in my life, especially being told how lucky I was that he loved me and was faithful and I should feel privileged to have such a dedicated husband. I will check back regularly and if you think it’s appropriate I will give my full name for those who would like further information and affirmation I’m hoping to offer. My page has links to articles, research information and resources. Let me know if I can use this site as a link on my page. If you look up Janissary design you’ll see my artwork etc but will help you find me.
I’m happy to have you use this site as a link on your page.
I just “liked” your page. Beautiful design work. Come back and post any time. About using your real name, I encourage folks to come up with a pseudonym. You never know how things you say can come back to haunt you when a sociopath is on your tail.
Aw, this was an exceptionally nice post. Taking a
few minutes and actual effort to generate a superb article… but what can I say… I put things
off a lot and never manage to get anything done.
I too experienced rape by fraud.
I met a fellow online in 2008 who described himself as 39, never married, Christian, lawyer, living in Michigan. I later learned that he was a 42 year old, recently divorced, non-Christian, non-attorney, law enforcement agent, living with a woman in Washington DC; his name was also different than what he told me. Before I learned this information about him, I was nearly ready to deliver my child, conceived with him.
He then filed a family court case against me, with his ex-wife (an attorney) representing him; together they took off, filing claim after claim, every month, for 2 years (including a motion for sole physical custody). At that same time, there was another woman employed at his workplace who delivered a child conceived with him, just 6 months after I did.
It has been a long and disturbing road dealing with this person. I am grateful to have my child in my custody, where I can love her and provide a stable and nurturing life. Through it all I have found that many people find it rather dramatic to describe this situation has rape-like, though I have always described it that way and my truth is that there is no other way to describe it.
He has never demonstrated any remorse and continues to operate as if he is at war with me. Sadly, I see him regularly, at a police department, to exchange our child for court ordered parent/child visits. I do truly hope that “Rape by Fraud” be recognized as a crime everywhere. It seems insane that family courts are allowing children to be left in the care of any individual who would commit an act of Rape by Fraud to conceive the child; just as it would be insane to order a person to share child custody with a person who has raped them by the traditional definition of rape (which includes forced intercourse).
I’m so sorry about your predicament. Not only do people commit this crime, but their supporters simply don’t get it, and are often so deeply under their romantic spell that they can’t see the forest for the trees. His wife appears to be one of these! Let’s see how long the cloud of disbelief lasts for Bill Cosby’s wife now that he’s been formally charged.
I wish I had a nickel for everyone who faulted me for “carrying a grudge,” instead of recognizing what rape truly is, the act of securing sex by ANY MEANS other than the other person giving KNOWLEDGEABLE consent. No matter how big, or little the lie, the act of sex was based on a distortion, and the resultant behavior was sexual exploitation, not seduction.
Raising the child of the person who raped you is a difficult situation whether the victim was terrorized by violence, or undermined by fraud. That child’s life arose from a shameless act. All we, as parents, can do is try to make the best of a very bad situation with the resources and knowledge we have.
Please let me know what state or location you’re in.
Thank you for your response, Joyce. My experience of Rape By Fraud took place in Michigan.
I have no idea how long Bill Cosby’s wife is going to stand by him even though he has been arrested. It is disturbing to me to see those women’s stories doubted and questioned, in support of him. It’s shocking to see how many people refuse to believe he committed acts of rape, assault and drugging on those women.
Yes, in my scenario, his former wife certainly does seem to be under his spell. Yes, it is very difficult, and cruel, for my daughter to be turned over to (even on a temporary basis) this person who certainly violated me.
A guy lied to me about his real name, his age, his education level, and the fact that he has a fiancé. We slept together. I felt (call it intuition) like something was wrong and started to dig for answers. Then, I followed the breadcrumbs and found his FB page with his real name, age, and fiancé. At first I thought he a huge jerk for what he did but as the days went on, I started to realize how violated I felt. I haven’t been able to sleep. I’m nearly scared and I can’t pinpoint why exactly but I almost feel that if someone could lie to a person about major aspects of their identity, they lack basic human empathy therefor may also feel no remorse in physically attacking someone. I.e. What if he becomes enraged that my initial reaction was to tell his fiancé what he did. He knows where I live. Like you said a person who lies to someone to that extreme does not care for them and going back to general lack of empathy, if they become angry at the victim (in this case that would be me for ousting him to his fiancé) I can’t see what would stop him from harming me in retaliation.
Quite frankly I’m terrified, violated, and extremely confused on whether I brought this upon myself for believing someone without checking ID or even deciding to have intercourse with someone before a long-time relationship developed.
Anyone have similar feelings on this type of deceit? I’m very freaked out right now and I don’t know who to turn to because I feel like it is looked at as my “fault” because I participated in sex willing even though that person created a false identity.
Scared and Ashamed,
What you gave was your “permission,” but not your “consent.” Your permission was tricked from you. You were violated.
If society could understand the difference between permission and consent, this crime would be more readily understood. When someone gives permission to another person to take any form of action, they may not fully understand the ramifications of what they are doing. If the offender induced permission by lying or misleading them, they certainly did not consent to that behavior. In cases of trickery to induce sex, they were sexually exploited. Consent induced by deception is sexual assault.
Yes, you would have been a great deal better off if you had investigated him first. Offenders who behave this way are unusually very seductive. They know how to play with the “laws of attraction” to create an instantaneous reaction in your brain chemistry.
If there were laws on rape by fraud in your state, without checking ID, and without conducting a reasonable amount of due-diligence, this case would not likely be prosecuted. That doesn’t mean, however, that the guy was less of a cad, or that you were less assaulted by him. You were. And you feel violated because of it.
You also are experiencing the heightened state of anxiety that is symptomatic of a subset of PTSD known as Post Traumatic Rape Syndrome. Just because he used fraud, not terror, to undermine your consent, does not mean you weren’t raped.
This condition will continue to haunt you ’til you deal with it. Please seek help through a professional therapist who treats PTSD, rape, and understands the concept that no one should lie to you to induce you to have sex with them.
Not all sociopaths are violent. You’ve already spilled the beans on him. He has nothing further to fear from you. His girlfriend will either believe you, or she won’t. And it’s more likely that she won’t. She’s still drinking his Kool Aid.
But you can help put an end to this type of treatment by raising awareness in your area. Are you ready to roll up your sleeves to contact legislators and fight for laws to prevent this behavior from happening to other unsuspecting victims? If you are, let me know what state you’re in and we’ll get to work!
What about in Ohio?
Look on internet youtube Narcissistic Support…her name is Dana, she has many videos and you are NOT alone…I check Id of mine, he is all over internet…He did NOT have a FB open page, but his GF who had something on Google with her name and his, led many women finding out he was a liar living a double life.
Lol, what a load of bulls shit. Lying to someone is not a rape. By that logic, all women that are wearing makeup should be convicted of rape, because they are lying about how they actually look in order to attract men, and have sex with them.
If you had done your homework on the subject of appearance enhancements, which Joyce has discussed a thousand times, you wouldn’t sound so uninformed on what this law entails.
You’re quite correct in one respect… lying, in and of itself is not rape. Lying in order to sexually exploit someone; however, is. Thanks for the opportunity to make that perfectly clear.
I wish “anonymous” had the guts to identify him or herself. As a mental health professional I can attest to the fact that NO ONE just “gets over” betrayal, misrepresentation, trickery and duping. This woman was KNOWINGLY manipulated and deceived through “offensive charm” (read lies and manipulation) to procure sex then discarded. Predators rely upon the tactics of idealization, devaluation and discard.
You are blaming the victim here and should be ashamed of your ignorance and your stupidity. This woman was traumatized and needs to resolve this with a safe, supportive therapist.
I remain overtly suspicious of the motivation “anonymous” has…sounds like the devaluation and discard approach in this post. Wonder how often anonymous has relied upon and used predatory tactics to procure sex. Anonymous has a high identification with the aggressor and is clearly projecting (vomiting) his/her own psychological issues onto this website…..PLEAZE!!!!!!!!
Good job anonymous for outing yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!
100% right, Kat! A perfect example of how people justify harmful behaviors toward others. It takes emotional empathy to recognize another person’s pain. Anonymous seems totally void of that character trait! And their comment is typical of the way people with that mind-set perceive the behavior.
I have been raped by deception numerous times. I didn’t have a supportive family or set of friends, and struggle with autism and its different challenges. This last partner told me they loved me, and we lived together, I explained that I am monogamous and get attached and we agreed we wanted the same thing. When tax day came around a year later and they no longer found me a novel item, they slammed me with blame and scorn then admitted that they never even believed in monogamy. I’ve been traumatized worse by this than all the others; a year and a half later and I struggled to get out of bed or do anything; I cut my wrist open and I go through spells of rage and shame, sorrow and hopelessness. Everyday I have to control myself and I usually just fall apart and ask God why, then blame Him until I fall asleep again.
I’m terribly sorry to hear of the harm you suffered.
As a person with autism, do you receive medical benefits? If so, find out if they can be applied to a therapist who can help you. I would recommend you find a therapist whether you were autistic or not. And, make sure you locate one who is familiar with sociopathic relationships and the pain of PTSD.
I know it’s very difficult to feel anything positive right now. Your brain chemistry needs a jolt of endorphins to pull you out of feeling miserable. Getting out of bed simply to move around and get some aerobic exercise can help. Turn on your favorite music, get up and dance.
You hit on a very important word…. control. Right now, your thoughts are being controlled by a romantic addiction. You’ll need to override that addiction and take control back into your own hands. Part of that is grieving your loss and another part is recognizing the reality of what you dealt with, instead of hoping for the charming, caring person you thought he was.
Anyone can fall victim to a scammer regardless of how smart, stupid, rich or poor they are. They are good at what they do. You need to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and kick your thoughts of this guy to the curb. He isn’t worth a speck of space in your brain.
Joyce, you yourself seem like a nice woman but i need to ask you, what woud be the case if a woman does the same to a man?
Every time I’m faulted for being a “feminist,” two thoughts spring to mind. The first is “so what’s wrong with being a “feminist?” And the second is, I don’t know how I can make it clearer that women and men are both harmed by this type of sexual assault.
I’ve been careful to specify that sexual assault by fraud is the use of trickery to create “the act of sexual penetration.” This clearly means that both men and women are harmed. (I do not say “the use of trickery to sexually penetrate a person.”)
The most common use of this type of trickery, that I’ve seen for men who are harmed, is marriage/immigration fraud in which a female pretends to love a man in order to marry them for immigration status. And yes, I wholeheartedly support that sexual assault by fraud laws should apply in such cases.
I feel your ideas are a bit extreme but fascinating nevertheless. Would I be correct in assuming your definition of rape by fraud hinges upon how a person feels after they have been lied to and had sex. I mean, for example, if person A lies to person B about their marital status, then sleeps with person B, is this automatically rape? What about a situation where person B does not care they were lied to or feel violated in any way. Have they still been raped?
I know when applying the standard definition of rape, even if you have sex with someone who is unconscious and they wake up in the morning and find out and don’t care, that is still rape. I mean what constitutes rape doesn’t depend upon someone’s feelings, if they cannot consent they have been raped regardless of whether they care or not.
You’re 100% correct. A person who doesn’t care, however, would not go to the police and prosecute.
Criminal code carries stiffer penalties for aggravated rape- rape perpetrated by violence on a stranger, and simple rape… rape executed by a known party. Sexual assault by fraud is not aggravated rape…. it’s simple rape. You can also make a distinction between aggravated simple rape, where the known party violently rapes the victim, and non-aggravated simple rape, where the victim is raped though a means other than violence. Drugging a person and statutory rape without violence falls into the latter category. All forms, however, are, indeed, rape.
But let’s go a bit farther so we don’t raise the specter of everyone who “takes their wedding band off before they walked up to the bar and find someone to jump into bed with,” going to jail. And because people don’t really understand what rape is, I’d prefer to refer to the crime as sexual assault or sexual misconduct. In reality, it’s the same, no matter what you want to call it.
The law can only punish egregious cases. In the scenario we’re talking about, the person jumping in bed with the jerk is not conducting the due-diligence of a “reasonable” person. And, what proof that they told you this lie do you have?
So let’s divide the issue…. yes, when you lie to induce sex, you’re not seducing the person….. you’re defrauding them of sex. If you doped them or intoxicated them, they could give you permission, but they could not give you consent. If you defraud them, they can give you permission, but they can’t give you consent because permission is not CONSENT when induced by deception.
People who scream, yell, and jump up and down pretending that I want to lock up everyone who fibs, that I hate men, (this crime works both ways,) and that I’m a radical feminist, (they don’t know me,), are simply trying to avoid the concept by stirring up hysteria. And it’s probably because either it happened to them, and they don’t want to face that they’ve been sexually assaulted…. and I don’t blame them, or because they do this to people and want to continue.
Society should know, yes, when you lie to induce sex, you are sexually assaulting the person. Know it, stop doing it. Will you go to jail? Probably not! But egregious cases of hoaxing, and only egregious cases of hoaxing, could be tried in a courtroom.
Hello! I i have posted my experience on here before. Today has been really hard on me. I saw the guy who I thought liked me and cared about me, and he did what he usually does when he see me, he acts like I don’t exist.
This was a guy who said he was a virgin and was falling in love with me. That guy acted like the world’s largest sweetheart until we had sex. After we had sex he changed. Overall, he acts like I don’t exist. Some may defend him by saying “maybe the sex was bad!”
There is nothing wrong with me and even if it were true, the fact that he went from saying all those wonderful things to me, to acting like I don’t exit, is too much of a stretch to not realize that something is wrong.
I was raped in the past so I am all too familiar with the feelings that go along with being raped.
When I see him I feel violated all over again. I try to mentally scrub him out of my body. I picture myself with soap and water trying to erase him from my body, but I can’t.
He much worse than the guy/s that drugged me and raped me. This guy is much lower. He used lies and decit to get what he wanted rather than slipping something into my drink. The guy he pretended to be was a lie and the moment he got what he wanted, he pretended he didn’t know me.
I don’t think it was ever about the sex. It was about control. He wanted to feel powerful. The idea of being able to destroy my trust and heart seemed to give him the pleasure he was ultimately looking for. He wanted control my feelings and destroy my spirit. He is an awful person, one that I laugh at even through my tears because I know my worth.
What he did was nothing short of RAPE! He raped me!!! Unfortunately, I have to see this rapist from time to time because he lives near me. It takes a special kind of person to do what he did to another human being. He said he was a virgin. If so, then I feel sorry for whomever is next because he will continue to do the same to every woman he meets; it may not be immediately, but he is a monster.
I believe that guys like him will continue to do this to women and their behavior may even escelate to physical violence. It’s almost like a serial killer who starts of with small animal.
This all may seem extreme to some, but Itruly believe that he is evil and I won’t be the last person he does this to.
I’m so sorry to hear of your troubles!
I agree with you. No matter what he claims, you’re not the first, And you won’t be the last. Sounds like some sick fantasy that he wants to keep reliving the loss of his virginity.
I know it’s so troubling to have to run into someone who treated you so poorly. I hope you can soon see him for the disordered sicko he is and be glad you weren’t dragged down the rabbit hole in a longer-term affair with him. Once you can get there, you’ll be able to stomach those encounters more peacefully.
My recommendation is to read as much as you can about sociopaths so you can establish an emotional wall to keep yourself separate from him the next time you see him.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It’s particularly important for society to understand that people who have been violently raped feel that being duped into sex is simply another form of rape.
Sounds like this woman is having a hard time dealing with rejection.
It called get over it and move on- that’s the healthy approach
Quite frankly, yours is the NO-empathy, NO-conscience, emotionally disordered approach.
You are blind to her pain. People without emotional empathy simply don’t grasp the harm of non-consensual sex. The man duped her and discarded her. He usurped her self-determination through manipulation.
I’ve read most of these comments and agree with you on almost all of them Joyce except this one. This isn’t a case of force at all. To say someone that shows “false love” is raping someone… I don’t think that is accurate. The above commenter sounds like she simply fell for the wrong guy. I saw absolutely nothing in her comment that suggested he “lied to her.” He simply didn’t share the same emotions or wanted sex only. She never once said what he lied about or if he really did lie… and if her claim is he lied about his feelings… that isn’t rape. You can’t make that argument in court and it just doesn’t fit. Great post, great discussion though.
get over it and move on…….He lied to her to get her to give him caring nurturing and tenderness He was a virgin….who says that….ANONYMOUS ARE YOU A PSYCHOPATHY SOPHISTICAL NARCISSISTIC ASSHOLE!!! You know they say pretty much a Narcissist is like a Alien born with no emotional feelings, They have to watch and mimic other people to act like they have feelings of remorse empathy compassion. Their mind and heart are not connected. They are deviants.
Read the article again. It is the lie that constitutes the fraud. If the woman asked are you married and you say no, you are taking away her right to choose. She did not consent to have sex with a married man. The woman you lied to has just as many feelings as your wife. I guarantee you would not tell wife you had consensual sex with another women. The wife may catch feelings and exercise her legal right to divorce you. Then you will be sued for divorce and fraudulent sex. All because you did not respect “feelings” of others. namely women.
To be precise, it’s the sexual act based on the lie that’s the fraud. A lie alone is simply a lie. A lie that harms someone, such as depriving them of assets or depriving them of self determination over their body, is fraud.
So if the person lies about being married, but no sex takes place, and they didn’t use that lie to deprive you in any other way, they didn’t commit a crime. But if they lied to you and didn’t straighten out that lie BEFORE they had sex with you, the crime of rape by fraud took place.