“Consent is a Freely Given, Knowledgeable and Informed Agreement, by a person with the capacity to reason!
– #FGKIA –
Correctly defining consent can save countless victims from sexual assault, domestic violence, sex trafficking, and more! In fact, every human interaction should respect each person’s right to “consent” over their property and their bodily autonomy. Yet consent could be the most misunderstood word in our justice system!
When the Cosby jury asked for the definition for “consent,” in Andrea Constand’s sexual assault case, Judge Steven O’Neill told them, “That’s a question that cannot be answered. You’re reasonable people. Use your common sense!”
When the Weinstein jurors asked for the definition for “consent” in the cases of Miriam Haley and Jessica Mann, Judge James Burke said. “Use your common sense.”
The state of New York and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are only two of the countless, consent-blind jurisdictions across the US and around the world.
Society, YOU, can change the egregious flaws in our laws! CAN is fighting to do exactly that!
CAN’s mission is: To turn society’s human right of CONSENT into a powerful civil right, backed by law, in order to prevent sex crimes and end rape culture! ©
Legislating the definition for consent in the penal code of every jurisdiction will make a world of difference! But no jurisdiction… absolutely none…. provides an actual definition for the noun “consent” in its penal law.
In fact, many states embed blame-the-victim concepts into their penal laws, including that the “words and actions” of the victim determine whether consent took place or not. This ignorant, archaic concept ignores that when someone uses malicious influence to secure your agreement or compliance, you are not consenting no matter what you say or do; and no matter how emphatically you say or do it!
Malicious influence, not the words and actions that result from malicious influence, are the determining factor between guilt or innocence in an enlightened society. No one has the right to use force, fear, fraud, or exploit your incapacity, to take what they want from YOU!
Consent is a unique and specialized form of “agreement.”
The accurate definition for consent is supported by Canon Law, Model Penal Code, Nuremberg Code, General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), Voting Rights Law, and more.
“Consent is a Freely Given, Knowledgeable and Informed Agreement, by a person with the capacity to reason!
– #FGKIA –
CAN currently has CONSENT bills pending in New York State and US federal law…. and is working on several legislative bills in additional locations.
Here’s what YOU can do to help!
- Watch this TEDx Talk for a clear understanding.
- Read Your Consent – The Key to Conquering Sexual Assault to determine how the laws in your jurisdiction effect YOU, your children, and your children’s children.
- Become a Consent Crusader in your jurisdiction.
- Sign the petition that supports the current CONSENT bills that are pending.
- Donate, because CAN cannot change the laws across the US and around the world without YOU!
Copyright, USA, Joyce Short- All rights reserved and strictly enforced. Except where otherwise indicated, all content on this website is the intellectual property of the author. Do not copy or repost any content without the express, written permission by the author. Info@ConsentAwareness.net.
Hi Joyce. What’s your stance on cosmetic surgery? I know my friend failed to disclose to a new partner that she had some cosmetic work done in the past, and I know she has already slept with him. I’ve told her she should tell him on multiple occasions but she is embarrassed and does not think it is important. I think it’s serious but she does not seem to think so. Like what if they end up having kids!? Do you think this falls under the category rape by fraud?
Amanda-
Great question!
Appearance enhancements that are removable do not fall within the concept of fraud because, after-all, they’re removable. If the person cares what you look like without your makeup, they clearly have a remedy. They can simply ask you to remove it. You can’t accuse someone of fraud without conducting reasonable due-diligence.
Plastic surgery can be another matter, particularly if you’ve had a sex-change operation. They are absolutely entitled to know the sex you started life with. To some people, it will matter. To other people it won’t. It’s not anyone’s prerogative to assume the other person’s acceptance of your sexual identity.
A nose job? C’mon. Tell the person and get it over with! Breast enlargement- you did it. It made you more attractive… fess up!
Will you or should you go to jail if you don’t tell someone you used to be an A cup but now your girls are the voluptuous enticements that boosted their testosterone? Hmmm…..that’s going to be up to individual states.
My take on it is that if it matters to the person that you’re all they think you are, they should ask. And if you lie, you are clearly conducting a fraud. I also think that people should have sufficient emotional intimacy to ask and answer the difficult questions before they engage in sexual intimacy. Jumping into bed with someone because you’re attracted to their big boobs is not “reasonable” due diligence. It’s as much folly as expecting the law to convict someone because they told you they had a Lamborghini and you hopped into the sack because you wanted to go for a ride.
Even if he doesn’t ask, your friend should tell him. She doesn’t want to because she’s afraid she’ll lose him. She put herself in a tough position in which her level of honesty becomes questionable to him. She can only enjoy trust by being trustworthy. If he finds out before she comes clean, if he has brains, he’ll walk away; and not because of her physical appearance but because of the lack of character she’s displayed.
Every time we engage in sex, no matter how careful we are, there is always a chance that the wigglies will swim up-stream and impregnate the woman. If an appearance defect was remedied for either party, it could likely be remedied for the baby as well. So what is the real harm that occurs? ……The cost of plastic surgery to correct the defect.
We really don’t have the right to expect our offspring to look a certain way. We all carry DNA that results from thousands of years of ancestory. But if you think you were defrauded of the cost to correct the defect and want to recoup the money, sue them in civil court.
When I’m bombarded by men with their comments on how women deceive them, and the impact on them of having an “ugly” baby, I can only think that the real crime is the shallowness of their love for their child and that it’s too bad that being a total jerk isn’t a punishable offense.
And what is more I find your assertions offensive! Through your argument you are calling me, my brother, my mother, two of my best friends, and several of my colleges, rapists. How dare you!? I am outraged at such an accusation. This offends me deeply.
Robert-
In the Roman era, people didn’t think forcing a slave to have sex with them was rape. In fact their laws clearly stated that it wasn’t. At some point in history, a change came about, and people realized that the behavior was, indeed, rape. All those folks who’d engaged in the practice, millions, were rapists.
It’s unfortunate that you associate with folks who apparently have very little respect for another person’s boundaries….. if they actually thought that lying to get around those boundaries was ok. Sounds like you hang out with some very manipulative people. And though they didn’t see their behavior as a sexual assault previously, they should see it for what it is now, and change their behavior. Manipulating a person into sex does not provide you with consent.
To answer your prior questions, I’m not surprised when people don’t agree. And I wish everyone would stop calling it my opinion. I’m just the messenger. It’s common sense. I’m speaking it, so I’ve become their target. They’re shooting the messenger. It’s a common form of ignorance.
Just because I understand it, doesn’t make it right or give them the license to do it. Socrates was put to death, by the way, because society was not willing to hear what we recognize as wisdom today.
It’s one thing to differ in opinion. It’s quite another to ridicule, defame and engage in hostility. I had to laugh when I re-posted the publicly uttered words of a man who specifically said stuff about what he’d do with my private parts, and his wife told me to take it down or they’d sue because his child could see. it. Obviously he didn’t care whether his child saw it when he uttered it. And he didn’t care if my child saw it either. Sue me for what… giving his publicly spoken words a bigger audience?
There are stages that concepts go through in order for society to accept them. Today, no one would think forcing a slave into sex wasn’t a horrific crime. In fact, we think of slavery as a horrific crime. We fought a war over it, Brothers fought brothers and hurled far more than obscenities at each other.
I guarantee you, 40 years from now, people will have a very different view of rape. Very simply, it will be: A person’s body is inviolate. Don’t do anything to procure consent by a dishonest, violent or surreptitious means. I probably won’t be alive to see it, but I’ll have peace knowing that I did my best to alter society’s view and stop this heinous behavior.
So you want to try and shame me for recognizing that the behavior of your family and friends is shameful…. go for it! But don’t expect that I’m simply going to sit idly by and absorb ridicule, threats and indecent treatment.
My policy is “You utter it, you own it, you’re accountable for it.” I’m not simply going to quietly absorb people’s indecency.
I will debate this issue all day and all night with people who behave in a decent, respectful manner. There is absolutely no reason for me to tolerate ridicule.
And lastly, I think you readily admitted that you, your friends and family engage in seducing people by lying to them. If I heard you wrong, I apologize. But if that’s so, please stop. You are creating far more destructive harm for that person than what you’ve believed up to this point. What you did before, you did unknowingly. Now you know.
Whilst I don’t think people should attack you personally, but rather they should criticise your arguments, are you really surprised when they do attack you? You are effectively arguing that very large numbers of the human population have engaged in rape, and are therefore rapists. If I went out onto the street and started calling people rapists then it would come as no surprise if one of them attacked me.
If you hit a hornets nest with a stick you are likely to get stung… What else would you expect?
Joyce, you are literally telling hundreds of millions of people that they are rapists…
Why would you be surprised when people don’t agree with your ideas?
Narcissistic are mental rapist…many men use sex to lore women into their web…Like a Vampire looking for blood…then go from one to the other to the other…They mentally mind fuck you with INTENT!!!!! The get off hurting women or if a man a woman…THEY get involved with women, using them to feed their addiction..WE are used as drugs People…..START Youtube.com and how they use sex and mental manipulation….PURE EVIL WITH INTENT. OVER AND OVER..Civil court cases….INTENT…..IS THE KEY WORD!!!!!
What if two people who are sleeping together are lying to each other about their religious beliefs, income and marital statuses, are they raping each other?
They sure are Alex. But you knew that. Why are you asking?
How exactly do two people “rape” each other? Two people having consensual sex but have both lied about certain aspects of themselves are raping each other!? You have just changed the definition of the word “rape” and then started applying it at your convenience. It’s like saying a triangle has four corners; you are wrong simply by the definition of the word rape.
Admin Note: this comment was edited for insulting rhetoric
Alex-
I try to address the questions I receive in a forthright manner, and so I removed your inflammatory comments in order to make that possible, rather than delete your comment. I’m happy to respond to honest, non-derogatory inquiry.
Rape is sex without consent. While a person can give “permission,” giving “consent” involves being knowledgeable. They were not knowledgeable.
It seems the only form of rape you understand is violent rape. But any sexual violation lacking in consent is an assault on the person’s sex organs, not seduction.
There are both overt, (violent), and covert (non-violent) forms of rape. For instance, drugging a person to engage them in sex is rape, but a covert form.
If you were conned out of $200, a crime would have been committed…right? And if you had conned that person out of $200, two crimes would have been committed, right?
If you con each other of sex, two crimes are being committed.
Because you are both conning each other, however, neither of you would have a case warranting prosecution because neither of you would have behaved in a “reasonable manner.”
I’m glad I stumbled upon your website as I now know that I am a rape survivor. I have been raped on several occasions by previous partners who cheated on me and didn’t tell me about it but kept on sleeping with me. Although I was angry and hurt when I found out, I broke up with them and moved on with my life rather quickly on both occasions. I never felt particularly violated, just betrayed. But, after reading your website I now feel I am a victim of abuse, regardless of the fact these events took place years ago. It has made me really rethink what actually happened, and now I am sick to my stomach at what they did to me. I feel disgusted at the thought of them having sex with me, and just can’t shake that feeling of dirtiness. Lets just say I have been a wreck for the past few days. I know the legal system will not yet support me to bring these perpetrators to justice for their crimes, but I am going to contact both my previous girlfriends and let them know exactly what they have done to me. Thank you for your website, without it I would have never understood how much they violated me, and they would have never be held accountable for their crimes.
There is so much wrong with this concept. Let’s be clear; you are not talking just about things like passing on diseases like HIV. Indeed, knowingly causing that harm to people is already illegal in most places. Although you mention it, you are not merely referring to actually miscommunicating *which* person you are, such as a lover or spouse when you aren’t that person. That’s already illegal and already rape. Although you mention it, you are not merely referring to claiming to be a doctor and examining a woman — which is already sexual assault — or “then inserting their “private parts” instead of a medical instrument — which is already rape even if you are a doctor.
The things you talk about that are not already illegal include identity characteristics and things that change your mind about a person, i.e., though “initially attracted, upon discovery, you’ll feel a pervasive sense of defilement.”
1. That makes a heck of a lot of things illegal suddenly. My ex-wife cheated on me. I only consented to sex with her under the belief that she was being faithful. This is both reasonable and I can demonstrate her cheating. Can I now have her thrown in jail for it? Registered as a sex offender? Ruin her chances of jobs? Get sole custody of our child because of her rape of me?
What about the woman I dated who turned out to be married. My consent was based on her claim to be single. I would never have consented knowing otherwise. Can I have her thrown in jail and all of those other nasty things?
What about the woman who said she had no kids on her dating profile but had 2 kids? I only consented because I wanted a relationship with no kids involved. Can I have her thrown in jail, etc.?
2. You haven’t provided a lick of evidence that there is any value whatsoever in putting people in jail or any of the other life-ruining effects of such a record. Yes, absolutely it’s not a nice thing to do to lie about these things. Nobody should do that. But there are a lot of “not nice” things that aren’t illegal. We don’t legislate “niceness”. It’s not nice to use smear tactics either. You know; some people like to smear others on social media, calling them nasty names, accusing them of supporting rape or being rape deniers, and so forth. That’s not nice either. Oddly, the people who do that most seem to be the ones who claim to be pushing some sort of moral policy of behaviour, instead of addressing the actual objections. Weird, huh.
So if what you said did become law and I had the women in #1 above thrown in jail, does that make the world a better place? Am I better off? Are they? Are others, such as their “next victim”? If so, how come I survived it, moved on, and everybody is doing fine? I’m not suffering PTSD. The fact I had sex with somebody I later decided was a jerk has not somehow ruined my life. Which brings us to the next one:
3. Why is the idea of having sex with somebody who you later decide you didn’t like suddenly a ruinous disaster? So if the guy was exactly who he said he was, then the sex was great; but if he had a different job than he claimed then your life is ruined and he must be punished?
The only way to reconcile your position is if (a) everybody must be a massive prude for whom sex is a bad thing unless under ideal conditions, and (b) those “ideal conditions” are based on shallow things related to identity. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with sex. If you have sex and it turns out the person you were with wasn’t as good as you thought, that’s really no more life-changing than getting a bad meal at a restaurant. Heck, with the restaurant you’re still out the money. Really, what makes sex so massively special in your mind that retroactively deciding you wished you hadn’t done it is suddenly worthy of jailing somebody over? Again, we’re not talking about something traumatic or health damaging like forced rape or knowingly giving you HIV.
Further, the kinds of things you are referring to are incredibly shallow. You’d find a guy attractive enough for sex because of some identify checklist, but mark him off if the same guy with the same body and the same personality didn’t live up to them? Really? That’s massively shallow. It’s like gold-digger shallow. If we’re talking about morality and what’s fair, people should decide to have sex because they are sexually aroused by the person. You can’t fraud your way into sexual arousal. Either he turns you on or he doesn’t. You can’t retroactively say that he didn’t when he did. That’s called changing your mind after the fact.
4. This whole concept undermines women as free agents. You are returning women to the days where their chastity is sacred and must be protected. Just like the prudishness above, this is highly conservative, right out of the Christian fundamentalist camp. You are absolving women of responsibility over their own bodies and placing it with society to protect.
You are saying that there can be some factor very important to your decision to have sex, but it is not your responsibility to ensure that factor is true; you are saying women should be allowed to be lax about such very important things to their decisions, and that the rest of society must ensure this happens.
It treats women as irresponsible, lax, and lacking free agency. It says they can’t be responsible enough to police their own sexual choices. It undoes decades of sexual liberation of women.
5. It’s hugely sexist. While I listed in #1 some women I could clearly throw in jail under your premise, you have clearly selected types of traits consistent with only attractors typical of women and excluded those typical of men. Women tend to be attracted by male status, income, and talent in addition to physical preferences. Males tend to be attracted by physical appearances of women. This is well understood from biological evolution of many species including humans thanks to differences in parental investment.
Women misrepresent their appearance as a matter of daily activity, from make-up to trigger male attraction and compete with other females, to push-up bras, to Spanx, to lying about weight, to high heels that life their butt (to trigger male visual attraction). These actually do affect male consent in sex. Your answer is merely to tell them to check it all before having sex. Make her wash off the make-up before having sex so you can see her true appearance, and see her naked without bra or Spanx. Of course we both know that any man that did that would not be having sex with that woman. It’s a huge turn-off, so completely unrealistic. Men just have to suck it up, hope for the best, and later if they find out the level to which she lied they just move on. That’s life.
Yet you don’t hold women to the same standard. You don’t say that women should check out all of the man’s important factors before consenting to sex. Why not? If it’s going to take more time than one evening, why consent that night, why not wait until you confirm? You have no problem spoiling men’s night of sex by making them check on the woman’s lies, but don’t seem willing to tell women to put the sex off until later. It’s a sexist double standard.
6. Such a law makes having sex a very dangerous act and provide incentives away from men and women getting along or having relationships. It will promote instead men staying single and using prostitutes (or even sex dolls or robots, an emerging technology). Many women wanting relationships simply won’t be able to attract a man because it’s just too costly and dangerous to try. After all, who knows what the other person will find critical information and may come back to say was critical to their consent.
It also incentivizes abuse simply out of vindictiveness. A jaded lover or a failed relationship can be re-cast as rape — the person wasn’t who you thought they were. Evidence of that isn’t hard, nor is reasonableness of the factor toward belief. I did it in #1 above. Those women really did violate the basis for my consent, and under your policy I really could be vindictive against them.
The difference is that I recognize that I did, in fact, give consent. I may have misjudged them. They may have betrayed me. And I learn from that. But I did give consent, and the sex acts that resulted did not cause me harm. Heck, the sex was fine — the verbal abuse from one of them was much closer to traumatic. Which brings me to:
7. If, in fact, you want to argue that retroactively regretting having sex with somebody is sufficiently traumatizing for some individuals to warrant jail and a record, then the same argument must be made for all equally or worse traumatizing actions to other individuals. The verbal abuse and underhanded manipulation of our friends (lying to them about me) that I took from one ex must then also be worth of her jail time. It was definitely tough to deal with. So should those actions also be illegal?
Ultimately, what it appears to me you’ve done is simply take a grievance that some women have and try to make it illegal for that to happen. It’s very self-serving and sexist, very unjust, very unrealistic, and will clearly result in a worse society of vindictive accusations. We shouldn’t be empowering people to turn their failed relationships into legal and social punishments. We should be empowering people to be free agents that take responsibility for their own choices and mistakes.
I don’t see anything you’ve said justifying your position here.
Dan-
Passing on disease is a mixed bag in penal code.
Some laws penalize people who pretend to be a known entity, others do not. Some only punish people for pretending to be your husband. Cases have been dismissed in several states when the offender pretended to be a lover rather than a husband. Again…. it’s a mixed bag.
1. Let’s establish a difference between what is prosecutorial and not prosecutorial so the hysteria baiting goes away. 90% of rape by fraud is not prosecutorial. It would take a significant hoax to be prosecuted under sexual assault by fraud law. I have stated that over and over and over again. People need to read, and stop pretending that I think everyone who tells a fib should go to jail. I am not saying they are not conducting a sexual assault… they are. They simply cannot be prosecuted without two primary and difficult to meet criteria…. 1. credible proof that a hoax took place 2. reasonable due-diligence on the part of the victim to know the truth.
Take your ring off at the bar and pick up someone for the night….. yes, you sexually assaulted her. Will you go to jail, absolutely not. Why not…. because she has absolutely no proof that you lied, and she did not take reasonable precautions to know the truth about you.
2. Most of the people who conduct actionable rape by fraud do so numerous times. They are repeat offenders. The trail of pain, permanent mistrust, PTSD, suicide, depression, and other consequences is heart wrenching. A person who lacks emotional empathy or who has never experienced the ill effects will have a difficult time relating to this harm. But people who have been violently raped, and also raped by fraud, will tell you that the severity of harm is as significant as when they were violently raped. In fact, some will tell you it’s even worse because the life impact of being raped by someone you trusted can be far more emotionally gut wrenching to recover from than being violently raped by a stranger. I know I’ll get huge backlash from that statement…. but you should speak with people who encounter both forms of rape and hear what they say about it. I have, many times.
3. Stop referring to rape by fraud as “changing your mind.” You never agreed to sex with that person. They violated you. You didn’t change your mind, you just discovered that they raped you. And they probably did so on multiple occasions. My ex pretended he was something he was not for 3.5 years. Any idea how many times I had sex with a total stranger throughout that time….. yuck! I can’t take enough showers, or baths to wash the stench of his violation from my awareness. All I can do is put it somewhere in my brain where it doesn’t hamper my day-to-day existence, and it took years for me to do so. I can’t begin to tell you the personal loss I suffered from his actions. Read the book.
4. How many times do I have to say that this law will not protect people from being irresponsible. You simply don’t get the underhandedness of sexual predators. They can fool anybody… including your mother. Would you like that to happen to her? Would you want your mother to feel defiled by a man she put her trust in because she did everything reasonable to determine she was safe with him, but she was not. You need to get it. This law will punish REAL SCAM ARTISTS. This will not punish the stupid scenarios you see in the media. That just muck-raking for the sake of selling newspapers or promoting a person’s agenda, and why Gad’s misstatements are so offensive, above and beyond the fact that he defamed me right out of the gate.
5. I’m not sexist, you are. You pretend that only women use appearance enhancements. I was on the Tom Leykis show and got the same baloney. Ironically, in the midst of the show, an ad for “lifts” for men’s shoes came on…. yet I was told I was being sexist about appearance enhancements. Just like you can’t go to jail because you don’t have a Lamborghini, you can’t go to jail for wearing makeup either. No condition that you had the ability to correct, but did’t, would pass the “reasonable person” test. Want to know what a person looks like without makeup? Ask them to remove it. Want to know how tall he is without his “lifts” ask him to stand up without his shoes. C’mon- if you have a remedy and don’t take it, that’s not a prosecutorial case. If you take the remedy, and the person still tricks you into thinking incorrectly about them, and you can prove that this happened, you MAY have a case. Just like all the stupidity about being Brad Pitt’s best friend won’t get the person thrown in jail, wearing a padded bra won’t get them thrown in jail either. Get naked with them. Like what you see? Have sex. Turns you off, walk away. If you hop into bed without reasonable due diligence, no law can help you.
6. Being defrauded into sex causes people harm. The level of harm it causes is determined largely by their brain chemistry. People with high levels of oxytocin, vasopressin and seratonin will anguish more than people with lower levels. Sociopaths are good at spotting people with high levels. They’re particularly caring and nurturing. It’s in their nature. They are wired to be more trusting than people with lower levels. We are all end products of our DNA which controls our brain chemistry. Sociopaths are very good at stirring brain chemistry to create bonding and trust.
We do not fail to criminalize murder, robbery, violent rape, or fraud over assets because some people will incorrectly be condemned. Baseless argument.
The consent you give to someone who defrauds you is no consent at all, you simply think it is at the time the act occurred. They covertly tricked you into providing that consent. Invalid consent is not consent. Depending on the levels of your brain chemistry, you wil feel more or less defiled when it happens to you.
Some people are better at dealing with robbery than others. Some folks forgive murderers for killing their family members. Everyone reacts differently but that doesn’t make it not a crime.
7. I’m told that I’m being sexist all the time, yet I can’t begin to state how many victims I’ve heard from that are men and suffered a heinous act of rape known as marriage/immigration fraud. It leaves men devastated. Everyone is entitled to free choice. No one is entitled to undermine their free choice by embroiling them in a sexual hoax.
Whew, I’m done. Had you read the blog and my book, you would have seen these responses dozens of times. Please don’t ask me another question until you do.
Just a question, if I cheat on my partner with someone then sleep with my partner without telling them, is that rape?
Obviously, you think so or you wouldn’t have asked. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
I’m glad I stumbled upon your website as I now know that I am a rape survivor. I have been raped on several occasions by previous partners who cheated on me and didn’t tell me about it but kept on sleeping with me. Although I was angry and hurt when I found out, I broke up with them and moved on with my life rather quickly on both occasions. I never felt particularly violated, just betrayed. But, after reading your website I now feel I am a victim of abuse, regardless of the fact these events took place years ago. It has made me really rethink what actually happened, and now I am sick to my stomach at what they did to me. I feel disgusted at the thought of them having sex with me, and just can’t shake that feeling of dirtiness. Lets just say I have been a wreck for the past few days. I know the legal system will not yet support me to bring these perpetrators to justice for their crimes, but I am going to contact both my previous girlfriends and let them know exactly what they have done to me. Thank you for your website, without it I would have never understood how much they violated me, and they would have never be held accountable for their crimes.
Adrian-
Unfortunately, there is very little accountability for the crime of sexual assault by fraud. Not for either men or women.
I’m sorry to hear how upset this information has made you. It’s obvious that you kept concerning yourself about it and it was still on your mind. Now that you know what it was, perhaps you’ll have an easier time putting closure on the past.
I sincerely hope so!
Joyce
Have you been doing it over and over and lying to the new lovers,,,you are single and texting them all the time and saying you miss them, while living a secret double life and having many women you are doing this to…WITH INTENT FOR YEARS…look up Narcissist and youtube Narcissist support…it is mental rape with intent of emotionally hurting someone…
https://verdict.justia.com/2013/05/01/rape-by-deception-rape-by-impersonation-and-a-new-california-bill
If a man lies to a woman to have certain sexual acts performed is it rape? Of course it is. She did not explicitly agree (say YES) to the outcome and consequences OR even worse – said Yes to having a one night stand.
When a man wants to use a woman, he never tells her (never mind asks) I am only interested in using your body for the night. Would he have said or asked – I’m only going to use you and/or your body for my sexual pleasure she would, in most cases, say NO!
The woman in turn believes they are going to have a relationship/are in a relationship/this couldn’t be a once off thing/he really cares for me/we have such a connection etc. and never realizes she is being used or might never see him again.
Women (almost) never agree to being used as a sexual objects! Men are totally aware of this!!
There are many sites giving men tips on how to get laid on first or second dates, even encouraging to look for women who are more vulnerable, or of certain age groups, not to spend money on her etc. Don’t fool yourselves, these men are sexual predators!
You might not be able to charge them with rape but it sure is some type of sexual assault.
I say this because I have a sister and a daughter!
Amen to that!
I’d appreciate your letting me know some of the sites that promote the behavior you’re speaking about. It’s time for a change!
I’ll be addressing a public hearing impaneled by the Assembly of NY State on October 21st. I’d like to get as much ammunition on this problem as possible to present at that time. Your contribution can make a meaningful difference.
Anonymous,
Very well said! I am also aware of these type sites. “The Art of Seduction,” by Robert Greene is very eye-opening. If you go to cyberpaths.blogspot and scroll down to The Lures of the Online Predator article, it talks all about it.
Huge thanks Nina! I’ll look them up.
I’ve been a victim now for many years and I have decided to break my silence. My body has been violated, and my sense of trust has been forever lost. It all started on a Friday night after work. I was at a bar during happy hour. I had a really stressful work week and needed some relaxation. From the corner of my eye walks in this 6 foot tall blond hair blue eyed angel. I couldn’t believe my luck, this beautiful person was actually talking to me. We talked and drank for hours, I felt a real connection. So we decided to go back to my place to get to know each other better. One thing leads to another, and we are all over each other. At the time something didn’t feel right, something was off, but I continued anyway. We made love all night long and held each other as we sleep. In the morning I was awoken by the sun shining in my face and as I look over I notice something very odd that startled me. The pillowcase was covered in what looked like paint, and on the the side of the bed laid a long blond wig! I started pulling back the sheets and I saw what I believe aged me 5 years and still haunts me to this day, She was BALD as a babies butt and was extremely UGLY, her makeup came off in her sleep. She had mentioned she is a model, there is NO WAY on God’s green earth she would ever be a model. I went to the bathroom to throw up, I guess the noise woke her up. She cam to see if I needed help, I said I’m fine and that I feel sick to my core and that she should go. She said ok, grabbed her wig, clothes, and contacts, not even her eyes were real. After she left I scrubbed and showered for about an hour. I stayed home for the weekend and skipped work on Monday. What she did to me should be a crime, and I hope my story will serve as a warning to anyone out there that might be in my shoes one day.
It is difficult, is not impossible to imagine a woman attempting to charismatically seduce a man by playing up her virginity just lose it by be deflowered. But should this occur, it certainly casts aspersions upon her character and would be a blatant case of misrepresentation. If having sex or marrying her was dependent upon her being a virgin, and she knowingly mislead and deceived you, yes then theoretically this would be rape by fraud given that consent was obtained through duplicity and misrepresentation. If your consent to have sex was based upon her prior sexual history, number of partners, etc and she either lied through omission or commission, then yes, she too is guilty of defrauding you of consent but I hardly see how the number of children she has or does not have would be relevant to the sex act. Highly relevant to a relationship or marriage, but not so much so for just sex. If a woman tricked you into impregnating her, then yes, she is also guilty off fraud. The whole point here is that when facts are withheld in orer for one party to obtain narcissistic gratification at the other’s expense, it is fraud. I am a woman.
I didn’t have to read far to recognize patterns here. I am a fifty something year old male. I have been married for over twenty five years. I have had an affair. fessed up immediately. had no idea if I would find my shorts on the front steps next morning. guy acquaintances called me an idiot for fessing up. in their words, ” you fool!,, you got away with it!” they are as I said, acquaintances, not friends.
.As it would turn out, years later, I would find out that my one time mistress was indeed lying about everything as she seduced me. I still maintain my responsibility here for my affair. that will never change. but this happened in the workplace. I had notified my boss. he laughed and said” yeah, she wants me too> ha ha Go back to work!” My humanity isn’t an excuse for bad behavior.
I know, as a man, what its like to be seduced by lies. and here I am still accepting responsibility for what happened. hold that thought.
Years later an old high school date of my wives’ came knocking on our door just out of prison. yep you might have guessed, he seduced her into a twenty month long affair. when I found out, as you might imagine, I couldn’t believe that she’d have anything to do with such a loser. but she was in love. in fact more in love than she had ever been. long story short, I did a 3000 hour crash course on the cluster b disorders. (it was the only way to keep my sanity.) I would find in this burrowing through info, some things about humanity that had baffled me for years. I thought I was smart as my iQ. had been tested at 136 and 144 in high school. I thought I understood things. what I would find was a veritable definition of evil. the using of not only someones body, but their heart was leveraged as well in order to keep the scam rolling. after my wife got wise to his bs., (there were funny times in this, this self proclaimed, gods gift to women, toughest guy in the world, would turn and run like a little mouse if my wife even mentioned that i might be near.)
we remained married,and what wasnt funny was that I watched as the bubbly funny passionate woman I had married retreated into herself. afraid to even peek out for over a year. it was the saddest thing I have ever witnessed.
she still blames herself, and I know she takes the bulk of the responsibility just like I did.
You see, Joyce is right. using someone’s emotions against them is tantamount to rape. no, its emotional rape. its leaves the same mark male or female. its just that more males do this than females. also females tend to be hurt more Deeply than males.(statistically) females use the promise of sex to get a male hooked. males use the promise of love. all to get what they want.
I am proud of one thing though. I have never found it necessary to lie to a woman to get sex from her. and you wouldn’t guess it to look at me, I am as average as a man can get. and at 50+ im as horny as a 17 year old so don’t think I don’t have an appetite. I know guys who seduce by lying are empty losers and I almost feel sorry for them.(its pointless as the cluster b-s don’t exist outside of their own fantasy.
This blog is, above, littered with Misogyny. and insecure males with teensy self esteems.its obvious to anyone with a conscience.
Drive on JMShort
sincerely
RG
Rick-
Sorry to hear what you and your wife went through. It’s a testament to true love and forgiveness, on both sides, that you were able to retain the relationship.
Thanks for your support!
Joyce
What would you call this conduct :
A person lying about their true sexual identity to get married for GREEN CARD to stay in USA.
I’d call it unconscionable, heartless, rape by fraud and marriage fraud.
It’s absurd that people argue against enacting rape by fraud laws! It could put an end to this type of vicious, selfish harm.
Women who wear makeup should be jailed for fraud.
Fraud is an act of theft. What does wearing makeup steal from you? Do you really think their lips are that color or the pencil on their eyelids is natural?
Your whole post is itself a type of fraud. Your agenda has nothing to do with rape and everything to do with making the world even more toxic for men and making laws which are sexist and favor women.
By your own logic, a woman who wears a bra is defrauding a guy that she is fitter than she actually is, and if he chooses to sleep with her, she has violated his informed consent and she is therefore guilty of rape.
What is especially disgusting about this post is that all decent men and women agree on how horrible and serious the actual crime of Rape is, and you’re abusing that alliance by trying to move the goalposts on what rape is, to make it include anything you don’t happen to like. Rape is when a woman walking home through the park gets jumped, beaten, threatened with death, and has sex forced on her, and we need to hunt down anyone who does that. If you’re talking about something else, call it something else or you’re insulting and demeaning actual victims who’ve actually been through that. And yes, some cases deserve to be treated the same way; a woman passed-out drunk and 100% unconcious, not moving or speaking, or a small child who has no idea what sex is. But you ruin your own credibility by trying to water down other things that happen so that you can end up labelling everything you don’t like as “rape”. So in your ideal world, a woman who chooses to walk home with a guy after a few drinks, leaves happy, but the next day is called a slut by her friends, suddenly omg shes a rape victim! I’ve heard complaints about someone being groped on the train: “but we’re treating it as rape because it could have been”. And NOW, see what you’re trying to do: Guy: I’m a rich guy Girl: Screw me! Now! (after) Guy: I’m not really a rich guy. Girl: “Help! Rape!” — can you not see how terribly appalling this is, not only to guys everywhere but to *actual* rape victims who in the future will not be taken so seriously because of the glut of slutty golddiggers queuing in front of them?
If somehow you make this fly, make damn sure you have the same laws apply to women who lie in any way to guys, because that sure happens as much as guys exaggerating during flirting.
Corum-
I invite posters like you to my blog in order for the world to see how necessary outlawing this hideous crime really is. Your staunch defiance over what should be common decency, and the fact that you show utter disdain toward the concept that no one should ever be tricked into intercourse underscores the tremendous need to enlighten society by outlawing this vicious, insidious crime. Lying to induce sex is simply a covert way to sexually assault them.
People who have been violently raped are as much in support of this law as people who have not been. In fact, I’m about to post a support from someone who had been both violently raped and raped by fraud.
No one has the right to invade the body of a person through trickery. People who do so are either totally ignorant of the harm it creates, possibly because they have a very low level of emotional empathy, like you seem to have, or they are pathologically disordered. Regardless of the cause for such ridiculous denial, outlawing this hideous behavior will help prevent it.
This law is not about exaggerating during flirting. It’s about LYING to seduce someone. You should understand the difference. Trying to attract someone’s attention is one thing. Trying to penetrate their body sexually through a scam is another. No matter what “exaggeration” you make in order to spark their interest in you, you need to straighten it out BEFORE you have sex with them. The same holds true for both men and women.
Thank you, Joyce. Your advocacy is very important. Not many people are brave enough to put themselves out there like you have. You have a lot of support. Thank you so much for all that you do.
With gratitude.
Grateful thanks for your acknowledgement!
Joyce
crack of s**t…this pile of cr*p is out to white knight a liar and con-artist. THIS POST I CAN SWEAR TO YOU IS WRITTEN BY A LESBIAN WHO HAS A HATRED OF MEN. Let’s see if this sack of cr*p goes on to have a son who gets accused of rape during his life time.
FYI- The woman who wrote the post is far from a lesbian, but even if she were, being so does not entitle anyone to exploit her sex organs.
You seem like the type….:
“Fight for men” you mean fight for rapists!
It is patently obvious that a woman hurt you. Get some in-depth psychotherapy before your toxic rage either destroys you or damages another human being…..Seriously.
This post is in response to Corum’s and “Fight for Men.” What an appalling misuse of this forum. Consider anger management!
So if a woman told me she was a virgin but lied she is a rapist? If a woman told me she slept with two men but actually slept with six then she is a rapist? If a woman told me she wasn’t a mother but in actuality had five children then she is a rapist? If a woman told me she was infertile and tricked me to try and get pregnant then she is a rapist? I am going to guess that you are going to come up with an excuse as to why this isn’t the case and its going to show everybody how you are a hypocrite misandrist sexist!
Christopher-
I’m not going to tell you she’s not a rapist. But, you’re missing the point.
Defrauding someone of sex is rape, just like using any other tool to overcome “consent” is rape. Men lie. Women lie. No one should lie to another person to induce sex. When they do, it’s not seduction, it’s an insidious, covert, sexual assault.
Will passing laws to bring this crime into penal code put every liar in jail? NO…… Not every lie is provable. And not every victim behaves with a level of responsibility toward discovery that a reasonable person would deem necessary in order to protect one’s self.
But make no mistake. Whether you are a man or a woman, when you lie to a person in order to induce them to have sex with you, you are assaulting them, not seducing them.
You are an idiot.
This is so innane, ignorant and overtly stupid it is unworthy of a response.
I’m glad I came across this site. I am a rape victim. I was drugged and raped years ago and have since, moved on and married. Sadly, my marraige ended in divorce. During my separation, I didn’t realize how vulnerable I was. I met someone through a job I worked on. We did a project together and became close.
I was going through a hard time in my life and this guy came along and he seemed great.
He turned on the charm and I liked him a lot. He told me all these wonderful things and I fell for him. Unfortunately, everything he told me was a lie. I didn’t realize what I was dealing with until months later. I am now divorced. He said we would be together etc. and none of that happened. He ultimately dumped me after our first and one sexual experience together. His excuse was that he didn’t want to be a rebound. He said he was scared. He said that once my divorce was finalized that we would be together. I believed him. He said he wanted to be with me, but that he was scared for me and that he wanted the divorce to go through. My husband was cheating on me and was out of my life. I was a good and faithful wife prior to our separation. My husband ultimately left me; though it was I who asked for the divorce because I thought it would be best.
Anyway, once I was divorced, that other guy changed his story. When I saw him in person (not a planned meeting), he seemed upset and when I told him I loved him, he laughed at me. It was not the first time I told him that, but it was the first time he laughed at me. I felt humiliated. He said “you were asking for it!” He said that after I told him, that I had only slept with three people and that he was the third.
He pursue me for months, knew I was going through a hard time, pretended to like me, told me he was falling for me, that he wanted to be with me, that we would be together after everything, and the whole time he didn’t mean any of it. He just used me. He changed immediately after sex. What I don’t understand, is that he didn’t have to drag it out the way he did. If he had dumped me after sex and just said I don’t think it’s going to work–have a nice life, I would have been upset. But to drag it out the way he did; it just added insult to injury.
I have been raped in the past and this latest experiece felt eerily the same. I felt like his drug of choice was lies. I actually feel worse now than how I felt years ago. At least the other guy who raped me, didn’t lead me on for months and physically laugh a me.
Neither the guy/s who drugged me and raped me or the liar I recently met, have been charged. Each has gotten away with taking pieces of me. I don’t feel whole anymore. I’ve made peace with what happened to me years ago, but this recent incident is hard to process. What that guy did was so cold and brutal. I’d like to call what he did “mental murder,” because he destroyed something in me far worse than the one/s who drugged me. That guy robbed me of my trust, my body, my heart, and my time. What he did felt like rape. It feels like rape. It’s as devastating as rape. To me it is rape. He pretended to like me, care for me, and he worked his way into my life and heart, to gain my trust solely for the purpose of sex. He was calculated, cold, decietful and manipulative. Sadly, I dont think I’ll be his last victim.
Your comment is so important, I’d like to make a post out of it. Would that be ok with you?
I’m so sorry about what you’ve had to deal with.
Scamming a person into sex is rape. And you have shown that is so in a truly heartfelt fashion. No matter what tool a person uses to induce sex, that undermines the other person’s self determination, it is not seduction, it’s sexual assault!
Like you, I’m also sure you won’t be his last victim. He’s an opportunist that preys on women. He’s a coward and a CAD! Thank you for coming forward with your story.
I truly hope you are on the mend. YOU are not what was done to you. What they took from you was criminal. It reflects who they are, not who you are.
Hi Joyce, I’m glad that you found my story interesting. I expected to see some negative remarks from some people who may not agree with my feelings of being raped by the that guy. It is so weird. I was in a very deep state of depression for months. The way I acted was exactly how I acted after I was raped years ago. I connected how I felt to that of a rape victim. I felt a constant since of horror and physical violation. I’m still trying to heal.
I found out about sex fraud/rape about a month ago. What’s interesting, is that I was calling rape hotlines to help me deal with what happened recently because no one I talked to understood the deep pain I felt. I wasn’t just dumped, I truly felt this deep since of physical and emotional violation. I felt used in every since of the word. I eventually connected how I was acting and thinking to how I felt years ago when I was raped. I tried to block that experience out, but what happened recently has allowed me to really make peace with that and to also understand myself better. I’ve been dumped before, lost a parent, and a recent divorce, but my physical and emotional reaction to rape, is very different from any other experience of loss that I have ever felt. It’s a feeling of being completely hollow and scared. Your welcome to use my post and send me the link when your done… I’m sure it will be intresting.
Another liar who is bitter because of her poor decisions….I bet the drugs used where great until she realized that the money the guy had wasn’t going to go in her back account. This gold digger is typical of a c*nt spreading her legs which is all grand and great until they realize that the wealthy male is not going to continue to pursue them. Yeah the guy involved is not the best guy out there….I’m certain he wasn’t broke as if he has the ability to access illegal drugs. This fake bitch knew the circumstances and still stuck around this guy.
Fight for men-
People fail to comprehend that “being tricked” into a decision is not “making” a decision. Consent is only valid when it’s void of force, duress or deception. Sex without consent is sexual assault.
Manipulating a person’s brain chemistry by tricking them into sex causes “sticking around.” It’s obvious that you simply don’t understand the dynamics of human bonding.
You should read more.
Why are you not in jail yet?
Your probably the one who did it!
Your just upset because you can’t continue to scam/RAPE women and get away with it.😞
No Anonymous, you wont be his last. Im sorry you endured what you did. but your wiser now. I have seen many cases where the perpetrator wasn’t after sex. they were only using it for a tool. a hook of sorts. what they were after is control and domination. and ultimately to destroy the beauty in their target. there is still beauty inside you. and you can take it back. it will require courage and you have that too.
sincerely
RG
Well said, Rick!
I’ve had a similar experience regarding being lead on and dumped. Many times actually. But none of those times involved actual sex. It was purely mental/emotional/of-the-heart. I guarantee you I can get more than one psychologist who can convince you that what I felt was on the same level as what you felt (I have my own tortured background to add to the mix comparable to yours). But none of my painful relationships got around to having sex. Should I still try to accuse those women of “rape”?
On the flip side I may have done something similar to what happened to you but not on purpose. She says I lied to her. That’s not the case at all. I honestly meant everything I said. I intended to follow through on every promise. But when we finally had sex, I realized that even though I adored everything about her person and her body (visually), when it came time to mix bodily fluids I was extremely turned off. For some reason my body chemistry did not like her body chemistry. I tried to enjoy making love to her multiple times but there was no enjoyment. I had to fake an orgasm twice. I had to lie about stress at work causing erectile dysfunction. Then when I saw her abysmal approach parenting and remembered that she wanted a large family… I lost all interest in her. When I tried to end the relationship she accused me of being nothing but a liar and using her for sex. She was devastatingly hurt. As hurt as I was in my experiences mentioned above. But I never lied to have sex with her. If the things proposed by this blog were law I’d have been immediately accused of “rape”. And she was so hurt. Oh my God she was so hurt, no jury in the world would have failed to convict me after hearing her testimony. And that’s because the “lies” she accused me of were the honest truth.
The women who hurt me did everything that man did to you. The big difference is he did it to you for sex. These women did the exact same thing to me for reasons other than sex which is why they never had sex with me.
Is it fraud? Yes.
Is it rape? I cannot agree to use the word “rape” for this.
There is a big difference between emotional rape and rape by fraud which is covered elsewhere on this blog. Emotional rape is not a criminal offense but rape to induce sex IS a criminal offense. You seem to not get the critical difference between the two.
And by the way…. You did not “have to fake an orgasm.” You CHOSE to do so.
You did not “have to lie about stress at work causing erectile dysfunction.” That was also your personal choice.
You are a liar. And you don’t even see that YOU made personal choices to lie. You attempted to hang onto a relationship without being honest with your mate. YOU committed emotional rape toward your mate. You felt entitled to do so, You justified your behavior. You’re still doing so.
And, btw, when people lied to you to embroil you in a relationship, they were emotionally raping you. It is not a criminal offense. Lyin+g to engage in an act of sexual penetration is.
Wow. I’ve been up night reading aobut this stuff and I was starting to form a much better understanding of it and actually leaning towards supporting it. But now I do not think you are capable of giving men the same compassion you would give a woman
Record-Breaking,
Both men and women engage in “acts of sexual penetration.” That language prevents rape by fraud from being considered specifically a “female” issue. Whether the man is being violated or the woman is being violated, both are covered by that terminology.
Joyce
Of course I attempted to hang onto a year and a half relationship that seemed to be heading directly towards marriage at a sane pace!
The first time we did it I did not know why it wasn’t good for me.
The 2nd and 3rd time were at her behest! She was so desperate to make up for the previous event there was no stopping her. And I’m a man. I’m prewired to assume whatever sex I’m about to get is going to be good.
I lied to aviod sex so I could have more time to process what was going on with my mind, body, and feelings towards her. I had no idea what was going on.
Can you also give me a complete definition of sexual penetration?
If a woman had rubbed her oiled naked body all over me, rubbed her vagina against my penis, put my fingers inside her, put my penis in her mouth? Are those close enough to “penetration” for a man to pursue a case against the woman?
Record-
You’ve asked me to define “sexual penetration.” Unfortunately, the language differs from state to state. My personal preference would be to consider all non-consensual sexual bodily contact, sexual contact without effective consent. unlawful under the law.
No matter what reason you justify your lies with, they were lies. What about “you chose to lie” do you not understand?
Did you just create another new crime…”emotional rape”? Is that what is happening here. People , well… civilized people, have a concept of how horrible the act of rape is, and how degrading it is to the victim. So what you are now doing is using a word that is supercharged with emotion to describe anything that you don’t like. “Emotional rape” next it will be finacial rape and educational rape…. It’s a tactic that should be used sparingly or you will soon numb your audience to the true meaning of the word.
Frank-
You need to read more about this subject.
Neither the term “Rape by Fraud” nor “Emotional Rape,” were invented by me. They have existed in the mental health community for many years.
It seems that you simply do not comprehend the horrific impact these acts have on the victims. You would prefer to minimize the effect rather than according those actions the immense, life-changing impacts they achieve.
It seems that you have a minimal amount of concern for the victims and don’t relate to the harm in these cases.
It is entirely possible that there was something about the sexual encounter with you that the cjarmer didn’t like. Maybe that was the reason it was the one and only time. Maybe being an adult in an adult relationship, he realized whatever it was he didn’t like about the encounter was not something he could overlook. Does that make him a rapist? No…
The thing is with a criminal act, the victims feelings cannot be the defining element that determines whether or not an action is a crime.You stated “I have been raped in the past and this latest experiece felt eerily the same. I felt like his drug of choice was lies”. What you feel cannot make his actions a crime. If you were to apply this concept to other crimes you will see how ridiculous this is. A Child who is beaten with a board every day, may feel that there is nothing wrong with it, because it is all the have ever known. Is it abuse? Absolutely. But if we use the victims feelings as a determining factor, then the abuser walks free. If another child has his video games taken away for a week, that child feels this is abusive, does that make the act of taking his video games away abuse? Definitely not. But if you were to use that childs feelings as a gauge then the parent is now accused of child abuse.
I am married to the woman of my dreams. I have told her time and time again that we will be together forever. If something horrible happens 5 years from now, and we divorce, did I misrepresent my intentions, and am now a rapist? Could I be charged with hundreds of counts of rape because a relationship doesnt work out? If dhe had only had sex with me all those years because she believed we would be together forever….and we divorced, then , using the logic presented here, I could be charged with hundreds of counts of rape. Is that correct?
It is very sad what happened to you when those guys drugged you.. those men are rapists and need to be punished severely, but the second guy…well, you gave consent. You said ” Neither the guy/s who drugged me and raped me or the liar I recently met, have been charged. Each has gotten away with taking pieces of me.” The Liar didn’t take anything from you, you gave it to him. And just because “it feels like rape” doesn’t make it a rape. You gave consent, had sex, and regretted it later…does your regret make him a felon? NO.
And just a little food for thought, you are technically an adulteress. You may have been separated, but until the divorce was final, the sex you had with the Liar was adultery.
Hi Frank-
Thanks for your contribution. It appears that you gave considerable thought to your statements, so I’d like to treat them with the respect they deserve. I’m going to include your text as a I go along so there will be no mistakes about my responses:
It is entirely possible that there was something about the sexual encounter with you that the charmer didn’t like. Maybe that was the reason it was the one and only time. Maybe being an adult in an adult relationship, he realized whatever it was he didn’t like about the encounter was not something he could overlook. Does that make him a rapist? No…
No one said that having a one-time-only sexual encounter makes someone a rapist. That’s an assumption on your part. Yes, they could be a rapist, but based on other factors, not solely on the fact that sex occurred only once.
The thing is with a criminal act, the victims feelings cannot be the defining element that determines whether or not an action is a crime.
Correct, Penal code in each state defines what constitutes a crime.
You stated “I have been raped in the past and this latest experiece felt eerily the same. I felt like his drug of choice was lies”. What you feel cannot make his actions a crime. If you were to apply this concept to other crimes you will see how ridiculous this is. A Child who is beaten with a board every day, may feel that there is nothing wrong with it, because it is all the have ever known. Is it abuse? Absolutely. But if we use the victims feelings as a determining factor, then the abuser walks free. If another child has his video games taken away for a week, that child feels this is abusive, does that make the act of taking his video games away abuse? Definitely not. But if you were to use that childs feelings as a gauge then the parent is now accused of child abuse.
The use of the word “feeling” was not there to state that because she felt a certain way, it must be a crime. She simply explained how the crime made her feel.
I am married to the woman of my dreams. I have told her time and time again that we will be together forever. If something horrible happens 5 years from now, and we divorce, did I misrepresent my intentions, and am now a rapist? Could I be charged with hundreds of counts of rape because a relationship doesnt work out? If she had only had sex with me all those years because she believed we would be together forever….and we divorced, then , using the logic presented here, I could be charged with hundreds of counts of rape. Is that correct?
No. People are absolutely entitled to change their minds. And that is why it is unlikely that Prosecutors will take on cases in which lies of intent are the foundation of the case. The offender could simply say, “I changed my mind.” And who could say differently?
But, if there is certain proof that the person lied about their intent at the time they made the statement of intent, “I’ll marry you in the morning,” when they are actually married to another person, it is unequivocal that they are lying about their intent.
It is very sad what happened to you when those guys drugged you.. those men are rapists and need to be punished severely, but the second guy…well, you gave consent. You said ” Neither the guy/s who drugged me and raped me or the liar I recently met, have been charged. Each has gotten away with taking pieces of me.” The Liar didn’t take anything from you, you gave it to him. And just because “it feels like rape” doesn’t make it a rape. You gave consent, had sex, and regretted it later…does your regret make him a felon? NO.
You are totally incorrect about your concept of “consent.” Trickery, deception, fraud…. call it what you will….. in all penal code in every state across the country NULLIFIES consent. More plainly stated, there is no consent when deception is used to induce an act. While the victim does not know they are not consenting, the offender knows, because the offender, and only the offender knows they are deceiving. It is the actions of the offender, not the actions of the victim, that make a crime a crime.
And just a little food for thought, you are technically an adulteress. You may have been separated, but until the divorce was final, the sex you had with the Liar was adultery.
Technically, you are incorrect on that score as well. “Adultery” is a crime in which the blood line is “adultered.” “Fornication,” which is an antiquated law that is no longer enforced, is the legal definition for the action you are attempting to label. Since it is antiquated and no longer enforced, you are simply being foolish for bringing it up. If anything, “fornication” would be a “tort” today, not a crime.
The guy was a jerk (or stronger descriptive word). However, you can’t make being a jerk a crime. Manipulation may do terrible things to you, but it is your ultimate choice to sleep with someone or not. Coercion is a terrible thing, but unless they are taking physical things from you, it should only be a lesson.
Being an a-hole is not and should not be a crime.
Because physically using your genitals, without your valid consent, is not a crime? Tricked consent is not valid consent. Every human being has the right to valid consent over the use of their body.
Your concept of coercion is not correct. Coercion, in most states, means threat of harm. It does not simply mean “persuasion” as many people think in colloquial terms. If you use coercion to induce sex, you will go to jail in the majority of states across the country.
Using trickery or “manipulation,” as you call it, undermines the victim’s self-determination. There is no validity to consent that is usurped through fraud. “Non-consensual sex is a sexual assault.” That is the very first clause in the ItsOnUs Pledge supported by Legislators across the country, and endorsed by President Obama.
When you trick someone into sex, you are sexually assaulting them. When you defraud someone for sex, they have not given you a legally valid form of consent, and you know it, because you know you lied, even if they do not. As in all crimes of fraud, the victim has no knowledge that a crime is being committed against them in the present. That does not mean that a crime is not being committed, however.
Don’t lie to seduce someone. It’s more than heinous behavior. It’s a covert form of rape.
By the same token, the conduct of women who wear short skirts for looking younger to entice men are engaging in fraudulent conduct? hahah
A fraud is a deliberate lie that induces the victim in parting with something they value. If the woman in the short skirt also lies about her age, and induces sex by so doing, that would be fraud. Simply wearing a short skirt does not constitute fraud.
I’m wearing a short skirt today to the US Open. I don’t intend to induce anyone into having sex with me by doing so.
If Joyce’s law passes it will be yet another enormous victory for attorney’s, judges, and the prison business.
And over time we will almost ALL eventually all be in prison or fiscally and emotionally destroyed from the expensive time consuming process of proving our innocence in our corrupt court system. The mere accusation of rape by fraud would become a charge needing a legally required response similar to the corrupt family court system or domestic violence accusations we have now.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. This is yet another law to control and punish society for immoral behavior unde the guise if protection safety security etc. thereby dragging it down into a legal meat grinder for their own financial benefit.
Yes. The lawyers will have a field day from this. They will profit immensely. And that’s what this will become – a financial windfall, or should I say pillaging, for the lawyers.
There are literally millions of laws on the books. International, Federal, state, municipal etc. How many more laws do we need? 25% of the USA population is in prison. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world. We have too many laws as is.
Joyce is a Statist. When you allow the kind of ultra intrusive laws Joyce is advocating for you are headed straight to a USSR Gulag type society. That is the historically proven end result. Please keep in mind ALL of these laws start off small or innocuously. They grow over time as they are selectively applied and enforced. And it always starts off as a good cause.
It is not the role of government to intervene in every aspect of people’s lives in the name of protection. Especially when it comes to private affairs resulting from peoples nativity, irresponsibility or stupidity.
Period.
Michael,
I’m going to try to keep this as brief as possible…….
People who rape should go to jail.
Non-consensual sex is rape.
What about “don’t lie to people you induce to have sex with you” do you not understand? Don’t want to be punished? Don’t do it. It’s pretty simple.
The law already exists in AL and TN. We’re not seeing the backlash you’re predicting from it. Experience speaks for itself.
And by-the-way, it’s not MY law. It’s society’s law.
If you think the judicial system is corrupt, work to straighten it out. But don’t fail to recognize a covert, silent form of rape because you don’t like the way our prosecution infrastructure works. That’s like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Joyce,
Yes. All rapists should go to prison or worse. However, under your law, everyone would be a potential rapist. Herein lies the problem. We don’t need more invasive laws, attorney’s, and prisons in this country. The law is also (in my personal opinion) unconstitutional. It should be stuck from the books in AL and TN.
You’re using anomaly cases as examples of justification for this fundamental law. You are correct when you say we are not seeing the backlash yet (keyword: yet) because the law will take years to circulate through the system. That is common sense.
You and I both agree sexual intercourse by deception (incorrectly coined as rape by you) is morally reprehensible. It’s despicable and borderline (keyword: borderline) criminal behavior for anyone to engage in. But it’s not up to the government to protect people from their own naivety, irresponsibility, stupidity, judgement, or general lack of moral behavior in gender relations. That’s where many people disagree.
We have two different belief systems. I’m a Constitutional Left Libertarian who believes in maintaining civil liberties freedom and individual choice to the absolute highest extent possible. Your a Statist. You believe government should intervene to the point of protecting people from their own naivety, irresponsibility, and stupidity. The only people who benefit from this are attorney’s and related industries.
Your solution is not realistically possible. It is very destructive for society in the long run. Please see the bigger picture at stake. People can and must take responsibility for their own choices. We both agree sexual intercourse by deception (incorrectly coined as rape by you) is wrong. But we have two different ways of dealing with reality.
P.S. Work to straighten out the judicial system? Tell that to Beverly Hills Attorney Richard Fine.
Michael-
I didn’t say we aren’t seeing backlash “yet.” I said, “we aren’t seeing backlash.”
I do not believe “government should intervene to the point of protecting people from their own naivety, irresponsibility, and stupidity.” You are making the assumption that sexual predators target victims who are naive, irresponsible and stupid. Nothing could be further from the truth. And, your mentality is one of victim blaming.
Sexual predators come in all shapes and sizes. So do their victims. I can assure you that no one who knows me for more than one half of one second would categorize me as either naive, irresponsible or stupid. What is evident is that society is unaware of how sexual predators operate and that ANYONE, regardless of their intelligence or their level of “savvy,” can be scammed. It’s actually naive for you to think differently.
In all forms of rape, it’s far too easy of heap the blame on the victim’s shoulder’s, and this type of rape is no different. When someone penetrates your sexual organs by scamming you, or engages you in a sex act you are tricked into, they have committed a heinous violation. Whether they told you a big lie or a little one in order to do so is irrelevant. What matters is that they tricked you into sex, they did not seduce you, they assaulted you. The offender’s behavior is the crime, not the victim’s.
People do not make a choice to be tricked into sex. They are no more at fault than the victims that were tricked into Bernie Madoff’s investment schemes. You would readily agree that his victims were defrauded of money but you fail to see the same use of fraud to induce sex as a crime. Many people don’t see it because they simply lack the emotional empathy to understand how defiling this behavior truly is to the victim. They think of sex as nothing more than a bodily function. If it were, there would be no rape laws at all, and sexual assaults would simply be treated as assaults.
Joyce,
I just read what happened to you. I’m very sorry for this. It’s very sad. I am not blaming the victim entirely. I feel guilty for saying this; but it’s not fair to pass laws forcing government to police sex by deception (i.e. what this man did to you) and forcing tax payers to foot the bill.
The government exists to protect life, liberty, and property. The government is not responsible for policing individuals interpersonal relationships and sexual behavior.
You claim repeatedly sex by deception is fraud. But this is not the same as financial fraud, commercial fraud, etc. It’s just not. I know you *think* it is, but it’s not.
You need to recognize the intent and limit of government. Most importantly: stop advocating for a police state. Your sexual affairs are you own choice and NOT the responsibility of the government to police.
Michael-
Sex by deception is a physical assault on a person’s genitals. No one has the right to touch your body in any fashion without your permission. When they do so, they are violating you. When they touch your sex organs without your permission, it’s a sexual assault.
There are many tools a person uses to sexually assault another human being, and every one of them is against the law because the offender VITIATED the person’s right to self-determination over their sexual organs. Sexual assault by fraud is not different.
Whether you are drugged, intoxicated, coerced, too young or mentally incapacitated, overwhelmed by force or duped, the end result is the same…… your are sexually assaulted.
People who suffer this crime will tell you unequivocally that tricking them out of money was a drop in the bucket to them compared to the horrific defilement of tricking them into sex. It is a form of rape. You simply don’t get it. No one has the right to trick you out of money. And no one has the right to trick you out of sex.
All forms of sexual assault cause permanent harm to the victim. You are minimizing the affects. You are being dismissive and you are incorrect.
question. So if a woman is wearing makeup, or has breast implants and doesn’t let the man know that their breast are intact “fake” she should goto jail correct?
OR
What if a good looking man wants to have attractive children and procreates with someone who, unbeknownst to him, had extreme surgery thereby falsifying her original physical appearance/genetic/DNA profile and produces “ugly babies”?
Or you can take a step further, and say, a women who had a genetically transmittable malady, say perhaps a 25% chance of psssing on X disease, and concealed this fact from her procreation partner because it was “her dream” to have children. The children are born with physical and/or mental defects requiring the expected 24/7 investment of time and money.
Should the women be sued for “rape” by fraud?
I’m curious to see where Joyce draws the line.
Michael,
It seems you’ve vested a great deal more authority in me than exists. The answer to your question would be up to law makers, judges and juries.
I believe in the simple principle that a person who tricks someone into sex is sexually assaulting, not seducing them. But what is punishable under the law is not up to me. I personally feel that neither men nor women should be hoodwinked into sex acts. But the laws regarding proof will eliminate a great many cases from both men and women. That does not mean that the victims will feel any less violated and I can surely relate to the harm you describe.
Keep in mind that having a beautiful mate is not assurance that your mixture of DNA and genes will result in beautiful children.
“When someone penetrates your sexual organs”
I am a man. My sexual organ doesn’t get penetrated.
Are you SURE this law would be applied equally to both sexes?
A woman once lied to me to get me to have sex with her… or so I thought. There was a rumour going around that I was black man with a white penis, white skin and all. She only wanted to see my penis. And I was at the time a Christian and trying to save myself for marriage so she was excited by the challenge.
She won my heart. She made me comfortable enough to want to be intimate. She finally got to see my package. She was disappointed that it wasn’t as discolored as she had been told. But she was satisfied that she had beaten the challenge she had set for herself and got me to be willing to have sex with her. Her next step was to do everything she could to break my heart and embarras me. She laughed at my penis. My penis is thicker and half an inch longer than my brother’s (don’t ask) yet she (and her boyfriend she’d had the whole time she was fooling me) told everyone who would listen that I had a tiny penis. This and many other hurtful things she said to me and many other lies she spread in hopes that the mocking of my peers would give me even more pain.
Like I said, a penis doesn’t get penetrated. But I did expose myself to her with the full intention of physically expressing love.
Would this fit your idea of rape by fraud? Even though there was no penetration involved?
It was a painfully embarrasing moment in my life. I wish I could sue her, fine her, put her on probation, make her have to see a shrink weekly and pay for it herself. So many things I wish I could do to her. And if I could have used the government as a weapon to have my revenge I would. But I would not call what she did to me “rape” even if I did penetrate her (or should I say even if she did penetrate herself with me) and I would not send her to America’s HELL of a prison system.
Feel free to consider the appropriate language, “acts of sexual penetration,” rather than “sexual penetration.” Whenever a person is induced into an “act of sexual penetration by the use of fraud,” they are being sexually assaulted. That is how such laws should read and be understood.
Hi Joyce: How does one go about supplying you with a CAD suspect? Thanks in advance.
Complete the form on the “CAD Suspects” page. The information is delivered to my email address.
Thanks for your reply. I found it after I emailed you and I have submitted the demographic information. Kat
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
I noticed a lot of comments that are assumptive that females who modify their bodies and wear makeup is a form of deception. This is not. Makeup was historically worn by men (Ancient Egypt for example) and worn by men in theater arts, especially before women were allowed on stage. It was worn by men playing male characters and by men playing female characters. I fact, men still wear makeup today. Also makeup, as well as clothing and body modifications are a personal choice and are done (most of the time) for the person who wants it done. To assume that females (and the men who do these things) are doing it to attract a male or female is incredibly self centered and arrogant. To the body modifications, this too has also been going on throughout history in the form of tattoos, piercings, foot binding, neck stretching, etc as there are too many to list. How is it that these things, which are cultural standards of beauty not being argued as deceptive, yet US females standards of beauty are being argued as being deceptive. Sure people from the US may not care for foot bindings, although it was considered beautiful to the people in that culture during that time, similar to how these days a bigger bum is considered beautiful. People have every right to do what they want to their OWN bodies, because nobody owns their bodies but themselves.Men also modify their bodies, so if one is going to argue that females who modify their bodies is deception then they must follow that same logic when it comes to men. Women can get breast implants, men get pec enhancements. People do this for their own personal reasons, and there is nothing wrong with that. OP/Admin of this article I suggest you look into these things to make your argument better.
Bobby-
Excellent points, and I certainly will follow-up and do so.
A great many of the comments about make-up and appearance enhancements came from followers of Tom Leykis after I was featured on his radio show. One of the ads in the broadcast was for “lifts” that would enhance a man’s height. I found it truly ironic!
Thanks for your contribution!
Thanks. I did read something about lifts in one of your comments, I am sorry if I came off as harsh with that last comment toward you. I should have done a quick google search, I have never heard of “lifts” and therefore had no idea what you were talking about.
No offense taken. I appreciate your suggestion!
Those are not ‘excellent points’ made by Bobby. Because body modification to temporarily make someone appear more beautiful has been going on forever doesn’t mean it doesn’t violate your principle of ‘sex by deception.’ If you really want to be consistent, you’d say it was also rape by deception.
And, If a man who is a virgin wanted to only marry a virgin woman and she lies about being a virgin, as another person gave as an example above, that is also rape by deception, which you also side-stepped.
It just seems you are side-stepping a lot of these examples where women are the perpetrators, only emphasizing those deceptions by men. I highly doubt ‘rape by deception’ is that one-sided.
And some men lie about their personal/professional stature because “I’m a janitor” “I’m a garbage collector” just isn’t good enough.
Oh and Joyce, does this notion include women who deceive and seduce men into to marriage, by feigning love, with sexual coercion…to marry his money, not him?
Dawn-
You’re doing a great deal of assuming…….
1. You’re assuming that the person would not find your job “good enough,” And even if they did, what would give you the right to trick them into having sex with you?
Sex is not your entitlement. It is not yours to scam someone into.
If you’re not proud of who you are, you need to better yourself or find someone who accepts you the way you are, not fool someone into sex with you. Your personal insecurity does not give you the right to sexually assault another person.
2. You’re assuming that the woman is marrying for money. How, exactly. will you prove that she’s doing so? In any case that is prosecuted, you need to provide proof, not assumption. Yes, people should not scam others, but not all cases are prosecutorial, even when they do.
“Yes, people should not scam others, but not all cases are prosecutorial, even when they do.”
The general vibe I get from what I’ve read about your proposal is that any conceivable reason someone might have to think they were lied to or had any kind of info witheld from them before sex should be a prosecutorial case.
You are incorrect. Prosecuting a case of rape by fraud is very difficult. But that doesn’t mean they were not violated by rape by fraud when a case is not prosecutorial. If they were defrauded of sex, they were raped by fraud, regardless whether the case could be pursued in a courtroom.
Before im fully behind this I need to know some stuff.
What about something like White Lies like saying I like my partners cooking so as not to offend her or I like this song she likes even if I find it annoying?
What about transpeople would having sex with them without knowing they are trans be considered rape?
Im kinda torn over what to think on these issues.
Oz-
The lies in this crime are not about your preferences or anything of that nature. They are about your identity or your intent. Lies of intent are much more difficult to prove in a courtroom, so the likelihood that a person could be prosecuted for a lie of intent is highly unlikely. The offender could simply say, “I changed my mind,” and that would end the case. There are, however, countries that do prosecute heavily for lies of intent. In fact there’s a current case in Bangladesh in which a famous cricket player, Rubell Hossain, promised marriage to a popular actress, Naznin Happy He was arrested for Rape by Fraud. Here’s the link.
In the US, the cases that would more likely be brought before a Prosecutor would be like Mischele Lewis’s case against William Allen Jordan. Everything he told her about himself was a lie. He completely distorted his identity. The man she engaged in sex with was nothing but a figment of his very overactive imagination…. a total, deliberate, and well-documented hoax.
Prosecutors must take the case before a grand jury to secure an indictment. If there is not sufficient proof to pursue a conviction, they simply wouldn’t bother.
Additionally, in all crimes, the victim must behave in a responsible manner. So if their reliance on the offender’s lies was not a ‘reasonable” action, no case could be charged.
wait.. so a woman can offer sex but say no before it happens and thats ok.. but if a guy offers marriage and says no before it happens then its rape? Gynocentric much? I’m pretty sure that if a girl offers sex and lets the guy buy the meal and all the drinks and later says no, she can’t be charged with rape. Are you actually encouraging women to be golddiggers?
Corum-
Let’s examine your argument-
“A woman offers sex” seems to be your misconception of a date. Just because people go to dinner and the guy picks up the tab, does not mean she’s offering sex. But let’s take your example at face value and assume that’s the case….. the guy says, “let’s have sex” and the woman says, “take me to dinner and I’ll have sex with you.” She then reneges. No sex takes place, therefore, no rape takes place. Can you follow me so far?
You also assume that she’s a gold-digger because she did so. Hmmmm….. maybe he did something during dinner that turned her off. Does it occur to you that someone can change their mind about having sex with you, and that’s okay?
Now let’s look at the man promising marriage and going back on that promise, and let’s assume that SEX actually occurred. If the man was actually married to another person when he made that commitment, he obviously lied, didn’t he, and since sex took place in the context of that lie, he raped her. He used the lie in order to get through the person’s gates.
Also, if he promises marriage to multiple people at the same time, he’s obviously a liar also, isn’t he? And if he uses that lie to trick people into having sex with him, he’s sexually assaulting, not seducing them.
See how that works?
How do I go public against someone? The man I met said he was single. The next thing I know he and his wife are trying to ruin my life. It seems their money is keeping me from getting help. They are trying to say THEY are the victims!! It’s crazy! How do I go public and get help? Can I take a lie detector and expose them?
Is there an e-mail I can write you at? I’ve written Congress, the attorney general, prosecutors, and even the president. Everyone refers me to someone else. I actually have a police station standing in my way. The wife has harassed me and the police station won’t give me the report I need. The state’s attorney’s office already said they’d press harassment charges and this jerk deputy refuses to give me the report when I have phone records and everything.
What a nightmare!
You can post his information on sites like cheaterville where the name is displayed for the world to see. I keep a list of CAD Suspects and I’ll research the name when I receive a request. I can add his name to the growing list when you complete the form on the CAD Suspects page.
If you tell me what state you’re in, I will look up the laws in your location and let you know if I think you have a case.
And by all means, complete the form for 50 Brave Women on this site.
Wishing you peace and recovery!
Joyce
What is a CAD Suspect ?
Also, Can you email me privately for more information that I need to
provide you regarding fraud case perpetrated by my spouse for staying in USA?
For a number of reasons, mostly to do with maintaining the credibility of this site, I no longer openly display the CAD Suspects data that I collect from viewers. There are controversial sites that do so. If a person contacts me attempting to determine whether someone they’re involved with has a history of harming others, I will; however, let them know if the name they provide is included on the list. I might also put the party in direct communication with the contributor, if I have approval from all concerned.
When you complete the data form on the CAD Suspects page, or the home page of the blog, all that information comes directly to my email address. It’s not viewable by the public.
Anon-
You’re right on the money!
People who adamantly oppose penal code to curb the heinous behavior of SexFraud do so because they simply don’t want to be curbed. They’re oblivious to the pain it causes others…. And probably, because they lack emotional empathy, which is the source of sociopathy.
Please tell me people can see through this! You must realize that lying about your college degree or salary before sex is not sexual assault! HOW CAN YOU CONFUSE THESE???? Any women signing this petition deserves to have their brother/father sued in court because of this and hopefully that wakes them the fxxx up!!!! SINCE WHEN MUST YOU PROVIDE ANYTHING OTHER THAN MUTUAL CONSENT FOR SEX??? Let’s not make it so everytime you stick your dxxx on something it’s a miniature marriage…LIE ABOUT ANYTHING YOU WANT TO GET LAID except STDs that is fair and that is the way it should stay! And as for you joyce m short, you can XXXXXX XXXXX XX XXXXX you piece of xxxx you are the reason men these days hate feminists.
So obviously, you came by the name AngryIntellect as an honest appraisal of yourself.
When a person is defrauded, FRAUD VITIATES CONSENT…… and the offender knows that they have done so. In simpler terms, defrauded consent is not consent at all.
What if I got said I had a phd but I only had a masters? OR if I lied about being in a band? I’ve slept with girls who I later found out had boyfriends. Was I raped?
William-
Check out my latest post.
Lying to induce sex is NEVER ok!! You are taking sex from someone WITHOUT their KNOWING consent.
The likelihood that you’ll go to jail for doing so, even if Sexual Assault by Fraud law were enacted in your state, is extremely unlikely. It takes a huge amount of proof to bring a criminal case against someone. So only the most egregious cases would pass muster with a Prosecutor.
But be aware…. when you lie to get someone to go to bed with you, you are assaulting that person, not seducing them.
You seem to always avoid one type of question. Males lying to females for the purpose of sex you seem to be very clear on, but whenever a question is asked with the roles reversed you seem to become vauge or unresponsive. So in regards to Williams question about whether he was raped by girls who had sex with him when they had boyfriends, where do you stand? Also a follow up question of my own, if he was raped should he name and shame these girls on your website?
I have never avoided this issue… you simply seem not to hear my response. No one, male or female, has the right to trick a person into sex. Period.
Angry intellect,
You are being very disrespectful! I don’t see that kind of talk tolerated on other web sites. Rape by Fraud can cause serious problems for the one being defrauded, and I don’t feel you have looked into it on a deeper level. You seem concerned about a father or brother – that’s nice. But what about a mother or sister. If you saw how this could affect them – maybe you would have a more objective opinion, or at least the capacity to discuss it without foul, disrespectful language, which only makes you look bad.
Men are just mad because with this law they can’t tell their filthy lies and get laid. If a woman doesn’t ant to sleep with you just the way you are, it’s FRAUD to lie her into bed. ANYONE who does it deserves SERIOUS jail time. It’s an epidemic.
It’s really astonishing the anger it generates. They simply disregard that all they’d need to do is stop lying if they don’t want to get prosecuted.
But no, they argue that it’s unfair to expect them to stop lying. And their argument is frequently, women lie too, as if that excuses them.
And on top of it all, when I state clearly that the law is gender neutral, they simply refuse to hear it.
Joyce, In response to my latest dilemma I also took a few courses on dating and attraction. some courses actually teach men how to circumvent a woman’s rejection mechanism. most are junk and seem like seedy get rich quick schemes. however what I learned is this in a nutshell. WOMEN ARE ATTRACTED TO AUTHENTICITY IN A MAN.. It’s genuine authenticity that truly gives a man a leg up in the world of attraction by making him confident in depth. WOMEN CAN SMELL IT.
I find it ironic that these males on here haven’t learned that and are so afraid of their own image that they feel compelled to misrepresent themselves. unless of course we’re having a discussion/argument with someone fitting the cluster b disorders??
in any case I think its impressive how you keep cool and they spin out of control.
sincerely
RG
If a man lies about his level of income and that is a deciding factor in whether or not you sleep with him, does that not say as much about your morality as it does his? I say this based on your comment ‘If a woman doesn’t (w)ant to sleep with you just the way you are, it’s FRAUD to lie her into bed.’. Also consider this using your own logic, if a woman goes out to a club and finds a guy to go home with, is she not defrauding him by wearing make up to enhance her features or by wearing a push up bra and body altering underwear to enhance her figure? After all if he wouldn’t want to sleep with her just the way she is, its fraud to lie him into bed, right?
Want to know if she wears makeup? Ask her. Want to see what she looks like without it… ask her to remove it.
People are entitled to personal preferences. They are not entitled to deprive you in business or education by discriminating against you.
Not giving you a job or allowing you to attend a school because you’re poor is unfair business or education practice. Not giving you a blow job because you’re poor is a personal choice. You get to make personal choices about who you have sex with. And no one has the right to trick you into your decision.
You really can’t tell me that you don’t make personal choices about who you go to bed with. If you don’t, you’re simply a slut.
And what precisely is the difference between a ‘personal choice’ and business or education practices? It seems you are arbitrarily making up differences like most people in this society because you find the logical conclusion of your stated principles uncomfortable.
sighs…..I am man and Thanks God and thanks your crazy-freak idea i can use it against women that deceived me to have sex with them. Once i became a victim due their lies .
Although you’re making your statement in a totally mocking fashion…. for the men who are actually defiled by this crime, you’re welcome.
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So with this articles premise in mind; it should be criminal for women to lie about being on birth control before sex?
now there should definitely be a law that if both partners agree neither of them wants kids from the consensual activities they are sharing then the woman should not be able to demand alimony if she later decides to keep the baby or was playing some dirty trick.
I see, so dirty tricks in sex are only bad if you personally see them as such….. but any other dirty trick is ok?
YOU are somehow the self-appointed arbiter of what is or is not an acceptable dirty trick. All hail AngryIntellect!
so says the person with the misadrist blog.
Carl-
It’s very interesting that no matter how many times I reinforce that the law is gender neutral, I’m accused of misandry.
You have a skewed perspective, and no amount of evidence or explanation will sway you. You simply refuse to let the facts get in the way of your truth.
People are missing her point. If you’re asking about birth control, you’ve OBVIOUSLY already decided to sleep with her. It’s men telling deceitful lies that heavily influence a woman to DECIDE to sleep with them. Example, “I’m a single, available guy.” This is FRAUD if he’s married. It’s also rape because the woman doesn’t willingly want to sleep with a married man. It’s a lie and a violation.
Good point!
I can’t imagine someone asking about a woman’s birth control as part of casual conversation! Hi there, I’m Teddy, I’m a Marine Biologist. What kind of birth control do you use?
A man could ask if they are on birth control and some women do lie about it and say yes while they are actually not. What of these cases in your law? If the man does say that he wouldn’t have had sex with this woman in he had known the truth. would he have been raped not only for sex but also for his seed?
Andrew,
Again, the interpretation of law is not up to me, it’s up to the courts and the lawmakers. But here’s how I believe that issue would likely be decided…
No one should be tricked into sex. But no form of birth control is foolproof, therefore, what proof exists that she actually committed a crime? Did she sexually assault the person? No one shuld hoodwink another person about reproductive issues. Would this rise to a prosecutorial case since it really can’t be proven? Probably not.
Again, you are side-stepping the issue when the victim is a male.
Is birth control foolproof? Of course not. But can a poor beggar who claims he is Brad Pitt to sleep with you suddenly get a million dollar acting contract tomorrow? Sure. So that same wiggle room you are attempting to insert here could be inserted into any of your examples.
Wrong again. What makes you assume he has “OBVIOUSLY already decided to sleep with her”? You just made that up when you wouldn’t in any other case.
Most men with assets and a good future are avoiding marriage now. Why? Because most women are gold diggers. The proposal of a law that convicts men of rape when they misrepresent their wealth proves this. Women don’t have time to waste with men that aren’t up to the woman’s standards in terms of wealth. That alone tells you all you need to know about most women.
If a law like this is passed, it will only serve to enlighten more men about the true nature of women. I’m therefore in favor of this law – as it will inadvertently turn more men off to marriage. This is a good thing. At least half the male population has decided to remain unmarried. A law like this would push that number up to 70%. The more anti-male laws, the fewer men will marry – which will save more men from divorce rape.
UntruthExposed-
Glad we’re on the same page. But you seem to be making a couple of assumptions:
1. Everyone should know the financial picture of someone they’re marrying, as well as all the intimate details of who they are, so your argument that lying about it to get someone into bed with them is going to deter marriage doesn’t seem like a valid point. At some point, the truth will out whether they could be convicted of SexFraud or not, so there is nothing to gain, other than a quick romp in the hay with someone you callously defrauded, by lying regarding your wealth.
2. If this law saves women from getting embroiled into sexual relations with scammers, even if it means less marriages, that would be a good thing. You seem to think that women want marriage at any price. I think a woman with character would rather be single than stuck in a relationship with someone who thinks that having wealth could buy them.
“I think a woman with character would rather be single than stuck in a relationship with someone who thinks that having wealth could buy them.”
Really? Really? The whole point of this law is to allow women to sue and criminalize men that misrepresent their wealth. I’m going to give you a minute to catch up here. Then, I’m going to hammer you.
…
…
…
Now, let me translate your statement into reality, Hon:
“Shallow women would rather remain single than get stuck in a relationship with a low income earner.”
You, I and every person reading this site can tell I’m right. You know it and I know it. Your little “speech” doesn’t fool anyone.
Having said the above, I’ll be the first to admit that men go after younger prettier girls and dump their older wives for the same. At least men don’t care about a woman’s wealth and only care about how they look (that was a joke). Know how I can admit that? Because I’m honest with myself. You should try it some day, Joyce.
Untruth Exposed has it right. Short’s quote about that horrible man who thinks his wealth can (horrors!)” buy” a woman reminds me of an old music hall song, a now ridiculous-sounding song from the turn of the last century where the priggish , prudish and virtuous heroine of the vocal part sings “Lips that touch liquor shall never touch mine! ” I envision Ms. Short picking up the bustles of her hoop skirt and having a fit of “the vapors” after a quote like that. Women allow men to “buy’ them with their wealth every day. A study recently done in China had the same man drive up to women in a major city intersection, first in a $300,000 Lamborghini , secondly in a slightly dented but recent, respectable SUV. All of the women he talked to while in the Lambo went for a ride with him. No woman would go for a ride with him in the SUV. The law is ,yes just an attempt by women( an ultimately unsuccessful attempt) to put the fear of Jesus into men that are successfully fooling women into thinking they have some wealth (or more wealth than their modest wealth), so that their gold-digging dating campaigns can move right in for the “big fish” without any delays caused by time spent with unworthy men, “unworthy” meaning men who aren’t wealthy.
Tom-
What self-respecting man would want to be with a woman who doesn’t want him for who he is? For Christ’s sake, there are loads of women out there. Just go find one who wants to be with the REAL you!
You don’t have the right to be with a woman who does not want to be with you! Don’t force yourself on them by lying to them!
Joyce-
That is a hypocritical statement, being that the dishonesty a woman receives is about assets, not personality. Personality is what you are defining when you say, “who he is.”
Women are permitted to lie all day long to sleep with a walking atm, but a man can’t lie about being one?
I’m not quite convinced you’re able to see from more than one perspective after reading your posts.
Furthermore, you are confusing being with, and sex. Men who lie about what they own or how much money they have or not generally interested in a relationship, but that “quick romp in the hay.”
Bob-
Clarification, I actually use the term “being with” as “having sex.”
And the dishonesty a woman receives is about a myriad of things. Can’t imagine why you think men just lie about money. Men get lied to as well, and also, about a myriad of things.
“Who he is” is about identity, not personality.
If I pull up in a rented Lamborghini and a gold digger jumps in my car without asking and starts coming on to me. We chat it up and have lunch and I assume she sees the stickers and plates on the car the clearly indicate it’s a rental. She asks me what I do for a living and I tell her the complete truth.
However, she incorrectly assumes I make a certain amount of money and never asks my income. I do not assume she is a gold digger so don’t mention my wealth or lack of wealth. She incorrectly assumes I own the car. I assume that she, like everyone else in my country, knows a green license plate that starts with R and multiple huge stickers all over the inside of the car reminding the driver to stay on the left side of the road is clear indication that the car is rented. I tell her I spend a lot of time in NYC. She assumes I’m an American and assumes I have lots of money to vacation in The Bahamas frequently. I assume that after explaining what I do for a living she would assume that my company pays for me to travel to NYC and I don’t have a huge travel budget.
If we have sex and the next day my ex-wife who stalks me contacts the woman and say “he’s a liar, that’s not his car, he’s not rich, whatever he promised you he can’t deliver…” etc. The lady may by influenced incorrectly remember many points of our conversations and think her own assumptions about my status were statements I made about my status.
I admit my hypothetical is a perfect storm of stupidity but there are stupid and vindictive people out there and bits and pieces of it have happed to people I know.
Like one guy told me: “I don’t know if she knows I’m broke. I’m not going to lie to her. Yes I spent $200 in walmart and put together an outfit that makes me look like an international play-boy. Yes I sold my house, bought a mustang, and moved into my dad’s basement. But I’m taking her to McDonalds for dinner. If she’s still into me after that she either loves me or is dumb as a rock. I’m not going to ask which one. She’ll let me know when she’s good and ready.”
The Irresponsible behavior of a victim, jumping into bed without conducting the due diligence of a “reasonable person” would not warrant a case. That said, taking advantage of someone’s stupidity to get them into bed is deplorable behavior.
Untruth-
You have a dim view of humanity and I simply don’t share your views.
Joyce I would encourage you to re examine untruth’s comments. You must realize a woman can already sue a man for all he’s worth and nobody will fact check shit until he’s spent a few nights in jail already. Why do you want to make the playing field even more un level? DO NOT CONFUSE SEXUAL ASSAULT WITH THIS BULLxxxx HASHTAG ‘SEXFRAUD’. Sex isn’t marriage, it isn’t a girlfriend boyfriend relationship, it’s a physical act with physical consequences and as long as you aren’t lying about the physical consequences it’s fine. You deserve the very worst for this disinformation you are spreading, and I genuinely hope you are deprived of free sex for the rest of your life. If this ever makes it to court you better fxxxxxxx hope you win cause if you don’t your punishment will be severe. To clarify, ‘SEXFRAUD’ IS NOT SEXUAL ASSAULT, ANYONE CONFUSING THE TERMS DESERVES TO BE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED SO THEY CAN LEARN THE Fxxxxxx DIFFERENCE I AM DISGUSTED AT THE SPREAD OF DISINFORMATION ON THIS SITE. Untruth, you have my respect. Joyce you truly deserve the worst I hope you know that. Don’t ever think you are helping people you ignorant piece of sxxx.
You have made it very obvious that you have no respect for intimacy. To you, your sex organs are nothing but warm flesh and body fluids.
Unfortunately, your mentality is what enables people to lie and defraud others of sex. You simply don’t get that sex is not just a physical act. It’s not just holding hands. When you insert yourself into a woman’s sexual organs or you hoodwink a man into sex by a hoax, you have raped them, SexFrauded them, or whatever word applies in the specific state where the behavior takes place.
If penal code viewed sex the same way you do, violent attacks to sexually penetrate someone would be considered “assault” not “rape.” What sets it appart is the violation of sexual organs, which is especially heinous in the eyes of the law, and every empathetic human being on the planet.
It’s pretty plain to see, you’re not one of them.
Let’s not put all men in the same bucket. A woman to me is way more than a receptacle for the by product of my gratification. I would rather be with my wife than the younger liar who seduced me. (And most would agree that she was at least on the surface more appealing.) her shallownes and inexperience showed up during the act and the only things left were the new and naughty and they dissipated in about ten seconds.
Further, most women I know would rather have a meaningful and deep relationship. Maybe these women who seem to want only money have only one thing in common. Guys like you.
Interesting points. I’d love to offer further development.
1. You’re right from a moral standpoint, about knowing the other parties financial background before marriage. This is not a legal right however.
I am interested in your use of the word “callously.”
This suggest the person lying doesn’t care about the feelings of the other. In this case, the male’s wealth, assets, or source of assets is typically the basis for any lies to influence a female into sexual activity.
If a woman would only normally engage in sex with a man on the basis wealth, does she in fact care about him, or his wealth? This strikes me to be equally, if not significantly more callous than anything the male is doing in this situation.
I say this to fit a similar trivial time commitment as you put it as well, “a quick romp in the hay.” A woman will meet a man of wealth and lie, and pretend to care about him, when all she really cares about is his financial assets, or high paying job. The subsequent effects are a lifetime of misery, and usually an unreasonably expensive divorce settlement for the male.
So, let’s weigh in. What’s more callous. A lie for a night or sex, or a lifetime manipulation?
2. The assumption here seems to be using an absolute use of the word, “women.” Not all women want any one thing.
Some women will do anything for a life of marriage. To filter that down further, some women will do anything for marriage with a wealthy man. Of course, the majority (in my belief) of males and females want a partner they truly love.
Are you narrowing your point to only involve these ambiguous women with “character?” Are not all women important at this point?
For sake of conversation, lets just talk about these women of character.
If this type of woman cannot be bought, and is not primarily interested in finding a wealthy man, she would not need to be lied to in the first place for sex, nor would she be crying rape. She would dismiss a liar, and move on, if she was in fact lied to in the first place.
Creating a law that would prohibit men from lying to women about wealth to get them to sleep together reinforces a prostitution image in my mind. It’s absolutely suggesting that these women ONLY slept with these guys because they thought they had money, otherwise the subject of wealth would never have been a topic in any conversation.
Where do we draw the line? The law needs to be precise. Should the law only involve lies of wealth, or any lie? Would women be held to the same standards? What lies count, and what do not? Can I lie having visited Alaska, when I’ve never been there? Or would that land me in jail?
Backing a law like this SexFraud nonsense would proliferate nothing but confusion, a gender barrier, and further societal problems.
The lesson is an old one. Don’t sleep with someone before you really know them, and when you do; do it because you like them as a person. Not for what they own.
My thoughts go on and on, but this wall has gotten tall enough.
Bob-
You and I seem to be on the same page… “Don’t sleep with someone before you really know them.” The problem is that some people will fashion a hoax that convinces the other person that they really know them. That, and not “he said, she saids” that lack proof and the personal responsibility of the victim is what can be prosecuted in sexual assault by fraud law.
Besides the legal inconsistencies that want to take a nonviolent crime, and suggest that it is the same as a physically violent crime is pretty insane.
Rape by nature is through the use of force. Fraud is typically only possible with the ascertain of assets where they would not normally be attainable.
Suggesting a man is raping a woman because he lied about being rich, is like saying she was promised his wealth for having sex with him.
The process this RapeFraud takes is along the lines of:
1. Lie, sex, marriage, with the possibility of expensive divorce settlement.
1. Lie, sex, child support.
In reality neither of these processes have been promised to the women, thus there cannot be any fraud. Beyond that, promises to marry, or anything involving a persons lie are not legally binding… people change their minds, and have every right to; among other reasons.
There is no fraud. There is no assault. There is no rape.
All there is, are two liars, irresponsible sex, and remorse.
No one is making a non-violent crime equal to a violent crime. You are listening to too much media hysteria baiting.
Most states have dropped the concept that violence must be present in rape. We would not have date rape laws if that were not true. So your concept that violence is the only form of rape is antiquated. (You actually used the term force, and most states, including NJ, have ruled that the force of penetration is sufficient to warrant a rape charge based on other behavior.)
Also, your concept of fraud only to procure assets is also invalid. Fraud is a tool that can be used in many ways. When it takes your assets, it’s “theft by fraud.” When it’s used to procure a Wildlife Card in the state of Florida, it’s “securing a wildlife card by fraud.” And when it’s used as a tool to sexually assault someone, its “sexual assault by fraud.”
You are going back to a premise about the application of the law that does not apply.
Simply telling someone you are wealthy when you’re not will not get you a stretch in the state pen. However, if you document that you are wealthy when you’re not, it could.
I have already stated elsewhere that lies of intent would not warrant a rape by fraud charge because the offender’s defense would simply be “I changed my mind.”
“Simply telling someone you are wealthy when you’re not will not get you a stretch in the state pen. However, if you document that you are wealthy when you’re not, it could. ”
So its a gateway law that will initially help the sort of gold digging whores who do research into their victims and later will be expanded on.
“Everyone should know the financial picture of someone they’re marrying”
Of course, and that applies equally to both genders, not just women. But this has nothing to do with marriage fraud. See the 2 important words in your own sentence? *everyone* and *marrying*. If the income of the partner is so much important to a person that they might not marry (as if marriage happens automatically after first sex “hey we had sex, now we can get married”) and simultaneously not get raped, maybe they should delay the sex until they see each other’s diplomas, income, birth certificates, criminal records, etc. to be on the safe side. The whole bill can be turned on its head with a simple question before first sex: “Hey do you promise to marry me if we have sex?” Say yes and you’re lying to get sex. Say no and with marriage out of the question nothing said is relevant anymore, as per your own statement.
Btw, I would advise that a man should ask the very same question like the woman: “Do you promise to marry me? Sign this document, so I can prove it.”
Most probably both would say “no, I won’t promise such a ridiculous thing”, else pre-marital sex goes for everyone out the window…
Zoo,
There are countries, right this minute, where if you promise to marry someone as a means of fraud, you go to jail for rape by fraud. There’s a pending criminal case in India.
But cases of intent are particularly difficult to prove. Cases in which a married offender proposes to a victim, and the target believes they are single and free to do so, would seem prosecutorial.
That’s the level of proof that would be involved. Would you not agree that a married man proposing marriage and giving a diamond ring to show his intent, then engaging in sex, is not a sexual assault by fraud?
UntruthExposed-
From my experience, what I have found is that a wealthy man versus a poorer man, is much more likely to be superficial and materialistic. I started dating this man and as our conversation started HE tried to bring up the money issue. I quickly grabbed some food we were eating and put it in his mouth because I did not want our relationship based on money. There are good women out there who are not gold diggers and are genuinely trying to meet a good man. And us good women often suffer from the gold digger women because a man seems to not know the difference. Your comment about marriage is truly sad to me because it is the children that will suffer the most from this.
Older women with money love younger, poorer men. Older men with money love younger, more fertile, more poor women. Younger poor women love older wealthier men. Younger poor men love older wealthier women.
Better looking men go after better looking women. Better looking women go after better looking men.
…and on…and on…and on.
We are all superficial. We are all shallow. We love movie stars, rock stars, etc. because we envy them. Ever see how women react to the Beatles, Elvis, Guns and Roses, etc? They go panty dripping crazy. Why? Superficial shallowness. Men do the same with women, though we don’t rip our jock straps off and throw them at the women on stage.
Women have zero couth.
Untruth-
So…
And that’s not to say that I agree with you. But what’s your point?
My point is that, as time passes, fewer and fewer will marry. Women naturally want a wealthier man, which will be harder and harder to come by. Why? Because women want more and more of the highest paying, most prestigious, most powerful jobs for themselves. Can’t have your cake and eat it too – sorry. What does this mean? Fewer and fewer women will have men in their lives more successful than themselves.
Men have been marrying down for centuries. Women are more than welcome to remain single for life, but if they want a mate, more and more will have to accept lower income earning men. More and more, men want nothing to do with relationships. Nor do women.
To create a law the demonizes men for misrepresenting themselves to get laid is no different than a woman getting breast implants. Each is looking to please the other for affection and love. Am I saying that searching for love and affection from another is a good thing? No, I’m not. We all need to find love within ourselves and reject the notion of partnership with others. There are no soul mates. Attachment = fear and dependency. In this life, you will lose all you love. Expectations are the root of all heartache – never have one.
My secondary point is that you’re a hypocrite.
Untruth-
So in your opinion, women should suffer rape in order to get married?
I think you have a very dim view of men, women and relationships.
Joyce can you please explain in your own words, I’ll accept essay format; what do you mean by the word rape when you use it in that sentence? I’m genuinely confused about when the rape occurred in this scenario? HAVE YOU READ A Fxxxxxx DICTIONARY????? EVER????
Here is the definition from the White House expressed in the It’sOnUs pledge: “Non-Consensual Sex is sexual assault.”
Fraud vitiates consent therefore, defrauded consent in sex is sexual assault, or the generic term, “rape.”
I don’t know what dictionary you are referring to. It might be better for you to look in penal code since we’re speaking about a crime. And it might also be better if you cut the anger and vulgarity, (which has been amended,) if you’d like to continue the conversation.
Here is the thing.
Women have been willing to have sex with men who they were in no way sexually attracted to or even repulsed by just for a comfortable life since the beginnings of humanities existence. All the while pretending to love the man for who he was.
Making women by your standards the biggest rapists the world has ever known.
Sorry but I’m not shallow and I’m a very attractive woman. My husband is not a ripped up stud who women throw themselves at but I still love him. I think you should speak for yourself. EVERYONE is NOT shallow and superficial, just you and other men like you.
When I see all these comments about Spanx, push-up bras, income, or whatever the trivial things brought up without the real important issue and that is Rape by Fraud. So, what is that?
I read a post by a woman that said she would rather being raped by a stranger because that is what it is and there is no confusion on that.
What to me makes Rape by Fraud so heinous and so hard to overcome is that at first you meet someone and build that natural chemistry, you build up a trust as your getting to know the other person and you may be finding out what you have in common or things you might do together all to come to an abrupt stop like hitting a brick wall.
Who am I? I am the face of Rape by Fraud – a face even years later can fill up with tears just thinking about what happened. It seemed we had the world in common, got along great and things were fine or so I thought, but it was an act. Everything was a lie and despite me thinking I had drawn consent lines, he did not care….why? Because he is a PREDATOR and these types do need to be stopped.
Long story short – as soon as the relationship escalated to what I thought was to be our first romantic evening turned into what I call legalized rape. Because he took the time to build my trust first he was able to carry out the rape. I met him for our romantic evening for what I thought would be the beginning of our relationship, it would be the last time I saw him. His demeanor changed and I was growing increasingly uncomfortable and wondering what was happening. I was alone with him and was totally at his mercy. I had spent a lot of money on lobster, shrimp, candles, etc…. There would be no romance, no foreplay, and all the stuff I bought was left in the bag while he raped me.
There was barely any talking back to my car and he about dumped me out. I was in shock and the confusion comes in because of the trust that was built first. I went home crying and the phone call I received from him was his gloating moment of being able to pull off the whole thing. His age was a lie, his marital status was a lie, his intentions were a lie – EVERYTHING WAS A LIE!!
I was one of many of his victims and he was well accomplished in his game. Because of other problems outside of what he did to me, such as getting fired from his job, saying he about ran someone off the road, I had a real problem on my hands. Just like a woman going to a police lineup to ID her rapist, I knew he was doing this to others – he admitted it to me. His mistake came when he threatened my daughter if I spoke out. I went to an attorney and after hearing everything, he said I had a case, but, it would be hard to prove. So, I took it to the next best thing – his wife.
For years I did not see him back online, but about a year ago I planted a fake profile and guess who finally clicked on it. Same game, same lines all over again. PREDATORS DO NOT STOP UNLESS THE LAW MAKES THEM.
Mind explaining how you’d prove his guilt in court? What verifiable evidence can you present?
Kalle Last,
I am not sure which way to answer or why you asked, but, as I said, the attorney felt I would be able to prosecute him in court. I did have and still have certain documents showing exactly what I said years ago, is what he is still doing today. You can’t go back and re-write something that is dated. There was a waitress as a witness, the web site Cyberpaths has my story that I wrote years ago saying the exact same thing I said years ago, receipts for certain things that would give any jury the evidence that I thought I was in a long term relationship and there is more. Just to give you an idea anyway.
How about my trauma? It affected my life and my health to a great degree? What compensation do I get for that? Was anybody here – my roommate did hear me in pain, my daughter heard me in pain and asked what was wrong with mommie. I was not the person I was before this happened. I spent about $1,000 dollars that I will never get back all based on lies. This was a rape, there was no equal sex, nothing for me as I lay in my slip not moving in fear for my life – not funny.
Nina-
You’ve hit on a valuable point. I’ve found that most people who object fail to see the horrific harm that is dealt to the victim. Unfortunately, a lot of folks simply lack the emotional empathy that would enable them to do so. And others simply haven’t heard of this problem and react with negativity because they have yet to think it through.
My entire life changed because of what happened to me. When a child results from sexfraud, there are permanent issues. People don’t think about what it’s like to co-parent with a person who raped you, or the impact it has on your child. That person is the child’s parent, just like you are. And their behavior becomes a forever thing in your life, even when they abandon their child….. and especially if they abandon their child.
Even if no child is in the picture, the sense of defilement is ever present in a person’s life. We can never recover our non-raped selves. All we can do is learn to cope with it.
Joyce,
This web site you created is a valuable tool in that it gives a platform for this very important discussion to begin.
I actually do remember a case years ago when a woman filed a $40 million dollar lawsuit against the man she married because she claimed the whole marriage was based on deceit. She filed and won the judgment for the pain and suffering she endured. Because as it turned out, he was a gay man. She had filed an Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress tort and the courts did see the damage of this kind of deceit.
The case was famous because the person that filed was the best selling author Terry McMillan, the book she wrote was How Stella Got Her Groove Back, and the movie soon followed. She was also the one who wrote Waiting To Exhale. The potential for damage is there and needs to be addressed.
I read your book and my heart goes out to you, I could barely put it down. I have also read most of the books you mentioned. Another favorite is The Emotional Rape Syndrome, written by Michael Fox, PH.D. Most men would love and admire this amazing man, an explosive expert, chemical expert along with his PH.D., a highly admired and intelligent man. He saw the need to write about the subject because of what happened to his good friend, whom he dedicated the book to – Shara was married to a psychologist who knew how to use his training to hurt her – she committed suicide.
Nina-
Often people who are embroiled in SexFraud hoaxes are dealing with sociopaths. They’re villains who have little regard for the welfare of the other person.
One of the reasons I wanted to go public about this crime was because I’d been caught in a Betrayal Bond that acted like toxic glue, fastening me to a relationship I should have left immediately when I discovered his lies. It’s very difficult to see the true character of a person when you’ve spent a considerable time experiencing them through a totally different prism. Reality is bewildering. I hope that my story creates an awareness that will help people understand why they need to leave.
A relationship with a sociopath will undermine your self worth and drive you into deep despair. I hope my book helps victims find the resolve to leave before they end up like Shara. What a tragic end!
Based on what I’ve read so far it seem the only thing she can catch him on is the marital status.
“His age was a lie, his marital status was a lie, his intentions were a lie”
Age is irrelevant as long as both are over whatever is the age of consent.
Joyce M. Short has posted multiple times the “lies of intent” were not a problem because a rock solid defense is as simple as “I changed my mind”.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong please.
Lies of intent are sexual assault. They are simply not persuable in court because they can’t be proven.
:False personation” is a crime. If you use “false personation” to secure a driver’s license, you’ll go to jail. It doesn’t matter whether you’re over the driving age or not. When you lie about your age, it’s false personation. You are creating a false image of yourself.
Record,
All you seem to care about is what he can get away with instead of the pain/suffering she went through. Your lack of empathy may reflect a sociopathic personality.
Nina-
Thanks so much for coming forward with your story. I know how painful it is to do so, particularly in a setting where not everyone can be counted on to exhibit empathy for what you went through.
I’m hoping that by conducting an open dialogue between survivors and people who fail to see the harm, we can enlighten society about why this law is so badly needed.
If you have’t already, please sign up on 50 Brave Women. You surely are one!
Sincere thanks!
Joyce
Thank you for your story. THAT is a true predator, and THAT is who these laws should be targeting. If the laws simply target anyone who exaggerates anything about their lives it will accomplish nothing but overworked police forced to enforce an impossible law and unable to target the real predators because they’ll be buried beneath hundreds of cases a day where people report people for shallow, petty reasons.
Laws that can target the genuine predators such as this man will be far harder to define, but worth the extra effort. They will prevent countless innocent people being locked up because they were embarrassed by some aspect of their lives, while also giving a better definition of the true predators and therefore making them both easier to avoid by a better informed public and, most importantly, making the predators think twice before acting out their sick games.
Chuzz-
I’ve said from the beginning that that is who the law is targeting.
Laws can’t exist because we don’t like something. They exist because the behavior is criminal. What’s criminal about it? It’s conducting sexual assault.
We have to understand the legal premise for it in order to create the law.
If you are driving 56 in a 55 mile an hour zone, would you get a speeding ticket? Well only if the police was a real j**k a*s. But it doesn’t mean that you weren’t speeding, you were.
If you tell a woman at a bar that you’re single in order to sleep with her, are you driving 56 in a 55 MPH zone…. of course. But you won’t get arrested for doing it. And people who think “appearance enhancements” are worthy of arrest should understand the same premise.
No one’s going to jail for saying they’re Brad Pitt’s best friend! But the media sells newspapers, creates an audience and followers by saying they will.
Then why specifically say that one of the petty things that shouldn’t matter in the grand scheme (appearance) should be exempt but the ones other people do should be able to make them lose their jobs, their friends and their entire lives? Sure nobody should go to jail for saying they’re a celebrities best friend, but under your proposed laws they could – and it would be perfectly legal. At least with a speeding ticket it is defined by maths and physics. If a cop does feel being a jerk and fining you for going one mile over the limit, its because you WERE going over the limit. Math is absolute. Under your proposed law if the same cop felt like being a jerk when your petty ex shows him a text of ypu saying your birthdate was a year later than it really is, the cop in question would be legally jistified in giving you jail time and your name on a sex offender registry which would affect every future relationship and make it almost impossible to maintain a future job.
If you’re not going to exempt all the tiny individual les and exaggerations so many people use on a daily basis, why make the ones you do exempt?
Make it so that only the true predators are targeted, or the law will either be the most abused law in history (by both police meeting a quota and by angry exes), the hardest to enforce, or it simply wont last.
The offenders name doesn’t go on the list until the Prosecutor, Grand Jury, Judge and Jury (of your peers) says it does. One stupid decision about a rape by fraud case by a police officer is not ruining someone’s career.
LIST? ….What list? Are you talking about having a list of men who lie to women for sex and other reasons being put on an Offender’s List or registry like the Sex Offender’s registry that actual convinced rapists have to register on every time they move once they are releases. This thing, Joy’ce’s Law, is getting more and more sinister the more we all find out about it.
Tom
I was answering Chuzz’s question about the sex offender registry. But if you don’t think lists currently exist that profile scammers, you’re wrong.
You’re still saying that people who deceive partners in any way other than what you could be accused of are legally guilty of one of the worst crimes imaginable
Chuzz-
I don’t understand what you’re saying.
I’m saying it’s strange that you still refuse to simply make other harmless little things exempt from being classified as sex crimes with the excuse that its unlikely for the courts and police to enforce it, but you still covered your own ass to make sure the form of deception YOU might use (appearance enhancements) can’t be used to bring charges against you.
In other words, despite all your insistence that it wont lead to innocent people being charged as sex offenders, you still felt its necessary to protect yourself – while refusing to accept that others deserve the same protection.
I still havent heard a single valid argument as to why appearance enhancements are more acceptable than other forms of deception except your own bias. If you felt these laws would be enforced fairly you wouldnt make an exception for that one of the many harmless forms of deception are so common.
And if you are worried about the laws being exercised to punish people for no good reason, there is no excuse to NOT make more ecemptions.
Chuzz-
If you stole a dollar would you go to jail? If you stole $1,000, would you go to jail? They are both theft.
If you drove 56 in a 55 mile and hour zone, would you get a speeding ticket? If you drove 75 in a 55 mile an hour zone, would you get a ticket. They’re both speeding.
A crime is a crime.
Here’s why appearance enhancements aren’t rape…… They don’t defraud you. They create a visual image, and you have eyes. They are not specifically intended to induce sex. A woman with breast implants wears them day and night, every day of the year, every year of her life. Make-up comes off. Want to know what she looks like without makeup? Ask her to take it off. You do not have to have sex with a person until you are satisfied with how they appear without non-permanent appearance enhancements. The permanent ones are not specifically there to trick you into sex.
If you stole a dollar, no you wouldn’t go to jail. You wouldn’t be charged and labeled as a sec offender either, which is what you propose lying about that dollar should lead to.
Appearance enhancements are a lie too. They are simply deceiving the eyes instead of the ears. Instead of saying “I earn more money than I do” they are saying “I have clearer skin than I do”
As I have said in almost every single comment, other forms of deception are not exclusively used for sex either, you simply refuse to believe that anything you wouldn’t do could be done for reasons other than evil.
A woman might get breast enhancements, or cover up a scar or pimple, or anything of the sort simply because they are embarrassed about what they or society view as an imperfection. As I have said many, many times, people exaggerate their income or their occupation or many other things for the exact same reason.
Just as women are expected to maintain an unrealistic level of beauty, men are expected to have a good job, their own house, a nice car.
A man who works as a garbage man will cover it up for the same reason a woman will cover up a skin condition – it is embarrassing.
A man will deny having to live with a family member for the same reason a woman might to wear something to look slimmer – society unfairly says its not ok, so they cover it up.
A man might lie about earning minumum wage for the same reason a woman might cover up scars – because we are told that being a “loser” or being physically unattractive are unacceptable.
And as for insisting someone clean up their makeup and get naked for sex, most women I know would take that as arrogant, insulting and self entitled, just as a man might if you ask to see proof that he owns the house or earns as much as he says.
Chuzz-
You have just proven my point-
If you stole a dollar, you wouldn’t go to jail. And if you committed SexFraud against a person in a manner that lacks proof or personal responsibility of the victim, you won’t go to jail either. It would be considered a deminimus claim.
If you want to know what a person looks like without her makeup, have her take her makeup off. If it is that important to you, you have responsibility to take the steps needed to reconcile your concerns.
SexFraud law is there to protect people who take the necessary steps to protect themselves, but the offender’s hoax is so egregious that it blocks their efforts. Or, such as in a case where the doctor inserts himself, instead of a medical instrument, it would have been reasonable for the victim to rely on the word of the offender.
There are lies that should be punishable. Lying about having an STI. Lying about being single. Lying about using birth control. Lying about your intentions with a partner. Lying about criminal history. And of course there are others.
But lying about something because of societies expectations, whether you are lying to ears or eyes, should not lead to criminal charges. Ideally these lies should not be necessary, but getting rid of these can only be done by getting rid of labels and shallow expectations, not making laws to force people to broadcast their insecurities to everyone they meet.
Chuzz-
The law is based on the principle that defrauding a person of sex is a sexual assault. And no law could ever be written that indicates each and every manner of fraud that someone will use to overcome a person’s consent. Nor can we evaluate what is a meaningful lie to each and every person.
But the law will be clear that significant proof and personal responsibility must be present. So it’s not a law that could be misused by someone’s shallow expectations.
A high level of proof and personal responsibility is required to prosecute all crimes. SexFraud is no different.
Then why make an exception for appearance enhements?
Of course, once again you’ll reply that you made them exempt because they aren’t always for sex, then I’ll explain once more that other shallow deceptions you refuse to make exempt arent either, then you’ll say that the law won’t be abused anyway, then I’ll ask why you feel it’s necessary to make appearance enhancements exempt… seems like an infinite loop that could easily be solved by making either all the shallow stuff exempt or none of it, making that one exeption only serves to illustrate bias and double standards.
Chuzz-
The shallow stuff would not be prosecuted. I’ve attempted to get that across time and time again. That being the case, why should appearance enhancements be. It’s also shallow stuff.
Once again, if you’re so site the shallow stuff won’t be prosecuted why make an exemption for appearance enhancements but not the other equally shallow stuff? This whole debate could easily be solved – if it should be prosecuted, make it exempt like you did with appearance enhancements.
If you are so sure the law wont be abused, there is no need to make that one particular thing exempt.
On the other hand if you think there’s enough of a risk to justify making that one thing exempt there is no excuse for not making other minor, shallow things exempt.
As it is, you can speak of fairness and belief that the law will be enforced fairly all you want, but refusing to fix this blatantly biased double standard in your proposal makes what you say meaningless.
Chuzz-
There is no telling what other “shallow” issues will come up, so the language can’t contain specific protection for all of them. But it can contain specific language for the ones that are known. And that is why it’s best to site them where possible.
The current wording on the bill states that de minimus claims will be excluded.
Chuzzwazza,
I agree with your comment, and thank you for realizing that in my case, this is a predator. I can only speak for myself, but, I don’t want to hurt men or ruin their lives because of a simple lie, I want to stop predators like the one I encountered.
I can tell you that the above article on Joyce’s page is exactly what happens when you go through what I did. The nightmares, the trauma, the crying, not trusting anyone and so on. It is a true and real devastating trauma.. The hard part is that you care about the person first as I would of liked nothing better to spoil this man as much as I could, but he is what he is.
Maybe some of the men on here do not understand what a woman goes through today and maybe we can help each other understand. I have been saying this long before this web site was here, and researched a lot of what is going on especially since the internet has come into play – and it is really scary for a woman today. I don’t want to bash men, I want the men back in this country to carry themselves with pride and dignity and treating women with respect.
Did anyone hear about the couple that just got married, but, what the wife did not know is that he was hooked on picking up woman on the internet. Shortly after their marriage, he killed her and left her body in the house as he bought new sheets for the bedroom in expectation of his mistress. There is a lot going on that is hush, hush, this case happened overseas, but things are out of control and it needs to be stopped. You can find that story on a web site I like that helped me when the above happened to me – It is cyberpaths.blogspot.com. These people trained with Scotland Yard and have a lot of articles on the subject – do look at the archives.
That story is sad, and I am compassionate to your circumstances, but I’m going to explain in a very clear manner why no new legislation needs to be passed here.
Online dating has it’s risks, you sign a disclaimer when you make your account. Fraud is always an issue on these sites, you are to expect that people will lie about their life to make it more appealing.
This guy was an asshole, and he deserves everything that’s coming to him, but if you already went out with him a few times and chose to keep seeing him, I know it sucks to hear but the burden is on you to find a good partner in this life.
Some people are assholes and just want to get laid as much as possible, you got unlucky, but you must understand that at any point you could have made it clear that you did not consent to sexual activities and we do have laws for that, that is rape.
This Sexfraud hashtag and what joyce is doing with this blog is absolute horseshit and confuses people. Rape is rape, lying about anything other than sexual diseases is your freedom as a person. How many women take a first date with a man and don’t tell him they have kids? Or are in massive debt? Sex is not marriage, it’s important to understand that when making laws.
And BEFORE you have sex with the person, if you’ve lied to them, you should let them know. Otherwise, you are defrauding them of sex.
Thanks for driving home the fact that many people use internet sites to defraud victims of sex. Their opinion is “whatever I say is ok as long as I can fool you.” What planet do you live on?
They trust you. You reward their trust with sexual assault?
You are one very cold snake!
Angry,
Although you show a little compassion, there is no waiver you sign to be assaulted in any way – that is ridiculous. Although, I am sure all the thieves, murderers and rapists would be glad to hear that. You have a criminal mentality.
PAY ALIMONY TO YOUR RAPIST THEN WE CAN TALK.
I supported my child without a nickle from his father for over twelve years, and even before then, he barely paid. The bastard who raped me disappeared. In today’s internet society, it would be more difficult to do so, but if you think there aren’t women out there raising children who are the end result of rape, who are not supported by their fathers, think again.
I never asked for a solitary cent in alimony.
Whenever you engage in sex, there is always the possibility of having a child. And that includes when people use the pill or any other form of contraceptive, whether you are madly in love, or when you are raped.
Yea lets look at the numbers.
Many Contraceptives for women are 99.9% effective.
Women claim 50% of pregnancies are unplanned.
Hmmm unplanned as far as the man is concerned sounds closer.
Carl-
Where are you getting your statistics from?
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html
Seems to me, the boy is correct. If female contraceptives are 99+% effective, and 51% of pregnancies are unplanned… huh. I wonder how THAT happened? What that means is there is MASSIVE birth control fraud going on, which would most certainly be punishable under this law. Women could then Rape By Fraud for getting pregnant while using birth control unless they could prove they had been taking all their pills, on time. Not sure how that would be done but there you go. That is the kind of world you are asking for with this sort of thing.
Heck, this might seriously increase IUD sales, as I wouldn’t even consider having sex with a woman without one, if this law were passed.
FYI- People get pregnant on IUDs.
The statistics show that only 5% orf reproductive age women become pregnant with unwanted pregnancies each year.
Seems to me you’re drawing the wrong conclusion.
Wait, what if he can prove that she had sex with married men before him and then claim that she has shown disregard for marital status and therefore would his lying about his marital status become irrelevant?
Just because a person wanted a cup of tea yesterday doesn’t mean they want tea today. Don’t assume a person wants tea.
Just an interesting programming note for this week (If I’m still allowed to post). This Wednesday 3/25 on NBC, “Law and Order SVU” is going to examine the question: Can a man be raped? I’m not a fan of these shows, but I’ll make an exception for this one, it should be interesting!
So while the ladies here are seeking to expand the definition to potentially make millions more men into felons, Hollywood is just starting to examine if it can even happen to a man.
It’s too bad we can’t talk civilly about these things because there are a lot of sides to this issue.
Boozer-
I’m happy to have any respectful opinions included in this discussion. What I remove are ad hominem attacks, harmful vulgarity, and assumptions that twist people’s words or insult them. I appreciate people who offer their insights, but those who resort to personal attack to bully or dogmatically defend their position will be removed. And, although some will think it unfair, as the creator and administrator of this blog, it’s my call.
Thanks for the information about “Law and Order.” In most states, there’s a difference between sexual penetration and sexual contact. If you’re asking my personal opinion, I believe when someone lies to accomplish either, it should qualify as sexual assault. So whether their private parts are “touched” or “penetrated” should be considered a crime whether they are male or female.
Good to know. It’s a passionate subject with points to be made on both sides but when it deteriorates into name calling and insults, nothing is accomplished.
IMO, men are not against a law going after real predators, true fraudsters, people who lie about STD’s, people who’s lies cause real measurable damage. The issue men have is the huge potential for abuse. We’re terrified that speaking the wrong words at the wrong time or some flippant remark taken the wrong way or used out of context can land a rape charge. A real, life altering, felony charge that will negatively effect everything we have going on in our life. Just defending yourself from something like that would bankrupt most guys.
I see a real potential for a disgruntled woman to completely ruin a guy just by saying, “he lied to get me in bed”. She can file away things he says, jump into bed, then decide later if she wants to cry “rape”. It’s a serious weapon that will, no doubt, be misused. We already live our daily lives fearing in the back of our minds the possibility of a false rape charge, this law brings that fear up front and center.
Boozer-
Rape by fraud is a criminal offense, not a tort. It can’t be used by a woman to file a frivolous lawsuit against a man. Every case has to meet the criteria of proof required by the police, the Prosecutor, the Grand Jury, the Judge and the jury in order for a conviction to occur.
There are legal abuses that happen in every crime. But we have a legal system that deters that from happening. This law can be abused, just like any other law. But the likelihood that someone could fool all the professionals who are involved in detection would have to be very rare.
People get executed that have never murdered anyone. People are convicted of crimes they never committed. Unfortunately, it happens. We don’t stop prosecuting murderers and thieves because it does.
We trust our system to dispense justice. If you can’t trust the system, create a different one. But failing to recognize a crime is not the solution.
i didn’t say anything about civil suits, I’m talking prison time. Nobody should rely on our judicial system to get anything right, especially ours. Minimizing the fact that innocent people will go to prison shows this law isn’t ready for prime time and it scares me that you’re not concerned about it.
The system relies on the quality of our laws and this is set up to be a very low quality law involving “he said, she said” evidence. Plus it assumes causality where none might exist. Which lie made her want to have sex with the guy and how do you prove it? Either you give all the women the benefit of the doubt, which isn’t justice, or you throw out every case summarily because there’s no way to prove a case. There also has to be an effort to confirm a man’s story before you can say he lied to get you in bed. The law shouldn’t take the place of personal responsibility.
Educating women to check out a man’s story is the proactive way to solve this issue. Expanding rape laws until consensual sex can be rape after the fact is a reactive way that values vengeance over justice. This law not only can, but will be abused and it’ll easy to do.
Do you want to actually want to solve the problem and encourage educating women or do you just want to see more men go to prison?
Lying to get sex is not rape, why do you seem to be under the assumption that everyone you have sex with you are going to marry or share finances with? Why the fuck should it matter to your sexual partner how much money you make if you guys are just having sex? As long as you can afford birth control I really fail to see relevance here.
Each individual has a right to determine what is and is not important for them. And you don’t have the right to usurp what is not freely given to you with knowing consent.
Not every human being will care about another person’s finances. But if they do, you have the right to either tell them the truth or walk away. YOU DON’T HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIE in order to take sex you would otherwise not get.
I think what this proposed law is lacking is a clear line between what should be considered an offense and what should not.
Should a man (or woman) who sneaks into someone’s bed in the darkness impersonating a lover be punished? Absolutely.
Should a man who claims to be an investment banker instead of a janitor be punished? No more so than a woman who claims to be 5 years younger than she is and disguises skin blemishes with makeup. THIS seems to be the main problem with these proposed laws. Yes, we all know that lying about income or wearing makeup are not exclusive to one gender, but its as foolish to say that being deceitful about your physical appearance is just as common with both genders as it is shallow to say that either that or how much you own is a fair way to choose a potential partner.
I think that’s what causes much of the anger at your proposal – the fact that the form of deception used most often by women is exempt, while the equally shallow form of deception more commonly used by men should be used to convict them and ruin their lives.
Chuzz-
Women wear makeup and appearance enhancements all the time. They are not specifically for the purpose of embroiling a person in sexual conduct. And the person they are having sex with has eyes. They can see what’s being used, and they can discuss what’s being used.
Unless you know something that I don’t know, their Spanx come off BEFORE they have sex. And so does the padded bra. If their sexual partner wants protection from “falsies”, have the person remove their bra. Wanna know what they look like behind the makeup? Have them wash their face.
If it’s important to you to know what a person looks like without their appearance enhancements, deal with it, before you have sex with them. There’s a remedy. Use it, or don’t complain.
A sexual hoax is a deliberate attempt to fool you into a sex act. A man can wear lifts in his shoes, and sex can be the furthest thing from his mind, (as if that ever happens.) I put on makeup before I walk my dogs. It’s got nothing whatsoever to do with having sex.
A man can also exaggerate his income, make up a fancy title for his job, say he has a better car than he does etc out of habit simply because some feel it enhances their social standing or simply out of embarrassment. I know many men who exaggerate in these ways, or out of shame (I’m sure most garbage men, for example, probably do this, and I know a few unemployed musicians who say that is their profession, for example.
So it’s ok for these men to be charged with rape and placed on sex offender registries because of this, but completely different if the deception is based on appearance, which is more commonly practiced by women?
Yes, im sure sometimes men (and occasionally women) do say these lies for sex. Just as women sometimes (and men occasionally) mislead others about their appearance for sex. So why is one ok and not the other? I’m not against these laws being passed. As I made clear in my first comment, there are many forms of rape through fraud that absolutely should be punished. But the exemption of appearance based lies and not other lies that are based solely on social standing but less often used by females and more often used by men is a double standard, and I think you will have a lot more support if this is fixed.
If a man can so casually ask a woman to remove her makeup before sex, why can’t a woman ask to see a mans car, or his payslips, or his bank statement?
Again, I would like to make it clear that I am not against your proposition. But I think rather than only deception about appearance, anything based on social standing, income, belongings etc should be exempt – anything that doesn’t affect who a person is AS A PERSON, as these are so common, and also include things like lying about age (more common with females or having children (possibly the only one that may be just as common with both sexes).
Pretending to be another PERSON is despicable. Pretending to be someones partner or love interest to sleep with them IS rape, in my opinion, and should be treated as such. And as a person in a committed relationship with someone who saved herself for me, and appreciates it even more because I know how much it meant to her, knowing that there are people who treat that as a game and pretend to be interested in someone purely for sex makes me sick to my stomach, but that’s almost impossible to enforce – people of both genders are capable of sending an angry text saying “I never cared about you” without meaning it, but if you can find a way to make laws forcing people to respect another persons desire to only sleep with a person they love, I’d be all for it. And there are probably many other possibilities in between, but a man (or woman) ashamed of earning minumum wage or working for the sewage department should not be branded a rapist because they feel that their job is so demeaning that they have to lie to increase their social standing.
Chuzz-
Sex is not an entitlement that you win by your social standing. Someone actually lives inside the body you are engaging in sex with, and they are entitled to make knowing choices about who they have sex with.
First if all, of course we know we’re having sex with a person. Men are not a bunch of creepy soulless monsters. We’re actual people as well with real feelings Guys get used and summarily dumped too. I’ve had women (only a few, lol) that never got back to me after we had sex. Did I feel bad? Of course, but I never thought they belonged in jail for it, because they don’t.
The word “entitled” is tricky. I don’t think a woman in a bar is entitled to my finances, my workplace or even my last name if I don’t want to give it out. It’s none of her business. I’m not going to share my private info with every girl I talk to on the chance we might leave the bar together later. She’s not entitled to anything of mine and if that’s a problem then she’s entitled to say goodnight anytime she pleases. If I exaggerate or put the best spin on things, she can accept that or not, it’s her choice. I’m not promising her anything except hopefully a good time. It’s 2015, if by now you’re not aware people might lie to you, you shouldn’t be out walking the streets.
Fraud in the legal sense means misrepresenting something to get money or something of value. What of actual value is given or taken during sex? Realistically the thing of most value in the situation is the man’s sperm.
Boozer-
SexFraud isn’t about getting dumped or not calling you back after sex.
I have never said that you should divulge every facet of your background when you first meet someone, but before you have sex with them, you should straighten out any lies you’ve told them.
Frankly, you have demonstrated exactly the type of mentality that’s at the heart of the problem and I thank you for being so candid. I think you exemplify a mentality that is pervasive in today’s society, and you don’t even recognize it as a “sexual assault” mentality.
Apparently, your finances are even more “private” to you than your sex organs. You’ll expose them to someone who you barely know. But don’t worry, SexFraud laws won’t prosecute the casual hook-up in which the victim failed to behave responsibly and jumped into bed with you without any inquiry or research.
Some women feel that way as well. Sex workers share their bodies with people all the time with no emotional connection to their private parts. Or so they think until they’re ripped off like the recent case in Canberra Australia where the offender was convicted of rape by fraud by defrauding her of her pay.
Just because you don’t value intimacy does not mean that other people don’t. In fact, most of moral society would more happily get ripped off for money than have their sex organs violated. One makes you angry. The other makes you defiled.
Fraud is usurping something of value through a lie. Most people actually value their sexual organs. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t have any rape laws at all. Violating a person’ sex organs would simply be an assault. It’s not. It’s a sexual assault, rape, sexual battery, sexual misconduct, sexfraud, or whatever name you’d like to associate with it.
Most people have “feelings” about what happens to them. They don’t necessarily “feel” (that’s called “emotional empathy,”) for what happens to others. From what you’ve said, it seems that you lack emotional empathy.
Having feelings for your own condition, but failing to feel for others is a Narcissitc, and possibly Sociopathic mentality. Lots of folks go through the world that way. Society needs to be made aware how prevalent your mentality is. And laws have to be created to protect people you would harm through you failure to stop yourself.
That person whose sexual organs have no value to you lives inside her body. She is someone’s mother, or sister or daughter. And every time I’ve used the word “she” in this post, I’m also referring to the “he’s” that get violated the same way.
So my issues with your proposed laws are baseless but my issues with your proposed laws show that I’m at the crux of the problem? That doesn’t work.
Saying that I represent the sexual assault mentality is a false statement and really insulting. It’s not about me, I’m throwing out scenarios. Saying I don’t value intimacy, or I don’t value my sex organs isn’t true either. It’s that they don’t have a monetary value. You missed the very obvious distinction.
The ad hominem attacks were declared off limits, or so you said. I’m pointing out flaws in your proposal and you counter by trying to see flaws in me. I don’t lack personal empathy by any stretch of the imagination, another insulting assumption that has nothing to do with my questions. Insinuating I’m a sociopath or a narcissist is not only insulting but demonstrably untrue.
I have huge issues with your proposal, it’s unfair, gender biased, hugely problematic to enforce and lends itself to massive abuse.
If you can counter my concerns without playing amateur internet psychologist, I’d like to read it. If you want to keep trying to point out your opinion of my flaws, I’d at least like a shot to point out my perception of yours.
So how do you prove a case of a man lying to get a girl in bed? How do you legally connect a man’s lie to a woman’s motivation to have sex with him? And how is this fraud with nothing of real value exchanged?
I’ll hang up and listen.
Rape is a crime. Rape is not about money. Rape is a crime without any monetary interest at all. (However, if you committed the crime of sexual assault in the process of stealing money as well, the charge would be “aggravated sexual assault.)
Fraud is a tool that is used in crimes. When you use fraud as a tool to accomplish a rape, it’s rape by fraud, (or sexual assault by fraud if you live in the state of New Jersey.)
Your concept that the only time fraud is fraud is when the victim is deprived of their monetary assets is patently false. If you look up penal code in your state, you will find page after page of different crimes in which fraud is used as a tool.
When fraud, deceit, or deception is used to conduct non-consensual sex, it is sexual assault by fraud because tricking someone invalidates their consent. When you trick them into sex with you, you are sexually assaulting them, not seducing them.
I see, because women don’t lie about their age, marital status, health, having children?
Truth be told, in states with rape by fraud laws, the volume of this crime should diminish. No one would be convicted of lying to induce sex if they simply stopped lying.
If you actually read my post you would see that I specifically stated that women also lie about these things. I was saying that these are common lies that haven’t been bought up by either side of the debate that should also be exempt from your proposed laws.
As for my references to social standing, I never said or even implied that social standing “entitles” anyone to sex.
Yes, people should be entitled to make knowing choices about who they have sex with – but apparently that doesnt include genetic problems (not necessarily extreme ones but simple skin conditions or any other aspect of appearance affected by genetics) that could affect children, or STIs that could be covered up with makeup.
Of course those are extreme cases that could be solved by asking potential partners invasive or insulting questions, but if how much money a person makes affects whether you sleep with someone you are just as shallow as if their appearance affects this decision. The only way this is different is that it is the most common deception among women, while the others affect men. If your decision to make it exempt is not motivated by sexism, it could simply be motivated by the common “what I do is fine but anything different is wrong” attitude so many people have.
And the thought that anyone (male or female) should be charged with a sex crime and possibly have their lives ruined because they were not confident with their social standing is just as disgusting as the thought that they should go through this because they are not confident with their appearance, and that’s the bottom line.
People who are not confident of their social standing don’t have the right to ruin someone’s life by sexual assault. You seem to think that lying to trick someone into sex is harmless. You are quite wrong!
I can’t follow your logic on appearance enhancements or I’d answer it.
You seriously can’t understand how exaggerating you physical traits is exactly as bad as exaggerating your income or how much you own?
Neither of these things affect who a person is as a human being. How is saying that you earn more than you do, or own more than you do, ruining someones life by sexual assault? And how is covering up skin conditions or changing your body shape artificially any better?
Sexually assaulting a person is a defilement. By lying to undermine their personal self-determination about who they have sexual contact with, the offender is defiling them. It’s no different than doping them to have sex with them. In both circumstances, the perpetrator vitiates the “knowing consent” of the victim.
You, my dear, are being delusional.. I don’t think you see that, but you are. You are not answering questions, you are dodging everything with loaded language, and never, ever addressing the points being brought to your attention.
Lying to someone about something, and then having sex with them, is NOT SEXUAL ASSAULT. It simply is NOT. I -might- be ok with the label “Sex Fraud’, but calling it Rape or Assault is destroying the credibility of women who genuinely GET raped and assaulted by men. What you are doing is making it harder for women like that to get justice, because society will become desensitized to the words you are using.
Don’t you understand that? Ultimately, you are going to lose, and lose BIG, in this equation. Not only will good quality men stay WAY the hell away from people like you (they will have special sites for them to pre vet women, do background checks on them, etc.. I know.. I use one, and I would never, EVER date a woman who was, or ever had been, a Radical Feminist) but women who are actually getting violently raped will get LESS sympathy, not more, as a result of this watering down of the language.
You are hurting your sister’s lives by insisting on this. Don’t believe me? That’s fine. But I’ll be happy to have my comment on record here to say I Told You So’
What I want is to have EXPLICITLY worded in this law that lying about birth control, STDs, number of partners, recent sexual activity, and if someone is currently in contact with ANY other men or ex boyfriends for purposes of anything sexual, or with whom they had a sexual relationship.. at the very least. It should also have lying about weight, fitness, health, wanting children or not, wanting marriage or not, religious values, and so on. Those are the areas where a woman can get an advantage by lying, and I want them enshrined in the law to protect women who want to deceive men.
And please don’t respond with anything that implies this is not a problem.. it is THE problem men face in the dating scene.
And you, my dear, are woefully off base. There are many people who have been violently raped who support this law.
Criminal law has long perceived that violence is not required for a rape charge. Before you make absurd statements with absolutely no validity, you may actually want to do some factual research about it.
Saying that a rape by fraud charge harms a person who’s been violently raped is like saying a theft charge harms a person who’s been robbed. Robbery is a crime of violence whereas theft is not.
Chuzz-
People ask me, all the time, “What about Spanx?” “What about push-up bras?” Sorry but they come off… They are not deliberate lies to defraud regarding sex. There are loads of reasons why people wear Spanx and push-up bras that have nothing to do with having sex.
Wanna know if they’re wearing a push up bra or Spanx? Have naked sex.
First, you are correct that makeup and appearance enhancements are not always for sex. But neither are cases where people lie about income or anything else. Just as one might cover up a skin condition out of embarrassment, the same is true for people who lie because their job is considered dirty or embarrassing, or they are forced to live with their parents for whatever reason, or that they feel they are on the verge of accomplishing a major goal in their lives so they feel its fine to exaggerate and say that they have accomplished these things already. These things are used solely for sex about as often as appearance enhancements.
And with that in mind, every argument you have for making appearance enhancements exempt applies to these as well – except that YOU do it so its ok, but if you wouldn’t do something then in your mind it must only be something people would do for sex.
People also ask about cosmetic surgery but you keep ignoring that.
I’ve answered it several times.
its the same with drunk men and women.
the concern towards a drunk woman is that she cannot consent.
the concern towards a drunk man is that he cannot “get it up”.
“No “appearance enhancements” should be considered “trickery” under this law,”
Women lie about their appearance to attract men (make-up, push-up bras, high heels, …).
Men lie about their wealth to attract women (key chain of an expensive car while not owning it, replica of expensive watch, …).
Should it be called “no attractiveness enhancements should be considered trickery” instead of just focusing on appearance?
I agree with the appearance enhancement thought here. It’s really too vague to make any conclusions about anyways.
What is the purpose of:
“No “appearance enhancements” should be considered “trickery” under this law,”
Other than to remove the possibility that women will be held accountable by this proposal? It seems random very self serving to make such a large exception that allows women to practice this form of deception with impunity.
Reaching to include men and excuse women in this type of prosecution makes this a very sexist and biased law.
We live in anti-male American era where Superbowl commercials can have Tina Fey, portraying a doctor, saying “Sorry, it’s a boy” to the parents, with impunity, and where men on television and in the ad industry in general I general are portrayed as either violent brutes or silly, foolish lunks and clowns. Your law coming at the height of this anti-male societal frenzy is a transparent attempt to ride this momentum, since you know but won’t admit, whether to Tom Leykis or anyone else, that this law will be applied against men, not women 99.999 percent of the time. As Leykis told you, any man attempting to seek redress under this law will be laughed out of the police station and/or the courthouse. I’ve already told you that you’re personally a very abrasive, unlikeable person, in a previous email to you, so it would be wrong to repeat that. Wrong.
Tom,
Your showing total bias. What about this law is gender-neutral do you not understand?
“My bias” is showing? Your disingenuousness is showing, Joyce. It showed on the Leykis show and it’s showing now. You prattle along and type along about this law as if this sterile set of words , your law, will simply be robotically followed by the relevant public servants , completely without gender bias. The real life reality- it will be selectively enforced 99% AGAINST MALES, by non-robotic human beings who are either in agreement with the prevailing anti-male sensibilities and sentiments of our times or are unwilling to buck these pressures and go against them, which is the vast majority of the people (99.99 percent) who will be charged with enforcing and prosecuting this law. You’re not fooling anyone Ms. Short, although it was obvious from the show that you think you’re the smartest person in the room. You’re clearly not.
For one thing Tom, it’s not my law, in fact, laws belong to society. And your assumption of gender bias, is clearly indicative of your personal bias. Your comment about my thinking I’m the smartest person in the room is totally without foundation. Do you have some kind of mental telepathy that enables you to understand what’s going on in my brain? Perhaps it’s the same ability that enables you to predict how the law will be enacted in the future. You must have a crystal ball.
Your mentality was completely obvious on the show the way you judged that woman that stated, quite simply, that she sometimes goes out and has sex for the sole purpose of having sex. That behavior is not against the law and your judgment of shows nothing more than you trying to legislate your own morality. This law is weak at best and will likely be proven to be unenforceable in practice.
If that is what this woman wants to do and everyone is OK with it – than fine, but nobody is saying anything about a persons right to choice. It’s when that choice is taken deceitfully and unknowingly.
I wouldn’t pay it much mind. It’s fairly obvious to even a viewer he’s projecting his insecurities. Same with people using ad hominem, however, there are things based on personal experience being said, and you can’t really invalidate. At the same time, people need to realize that just because they have seen something happen in one way somewhere, there’s no guarantee it’s the same everywhere. It’s an inappropriate application of inductive reasoning extrapolating off of a subjective tangent.
what about this law is gender-neutral do you not understand? What about basic grammar and sentence structure do you not understand lololol you are showing why you are unfit to make let alone suggest any legislation. Remove this comment why don’t you? I hope you one day realize how truly wrong you are by trying to stimulate a movement such as this. I truly do. I stand with all men in saying that we would rather die than make love to a piece of shit like yourself. WHO VOTES FOR THIS BITCH GETS NO SEX FOR LIFE IF SHE PASSES THIS LAW?
with you all the way brother.
Carl-
Figures. Two pigs in a blanket. Sorry, just couldn’t resist.
Joyce,
I love your quick wit – you are one sharp lady!
Anti-male society? What rock have you been living under? Men receive higher pay for less education. They receive better rates for everything from car loans to mortgages. They get a pass for verbal humiliation of all “others” whom they deem “less than”. They go about life acting like clowns and foolish lunks, so why are you surprised the ads target and mirror the modern male and what is acceptable male behavior in society?
You don’t like this law because it would require all men AND women to hold themselves accountable and be impeccable with their word, something people who rely upon subterfuge, charm and manipulations are unable and incapable of doing. It’s a shame so few can be genuine and honest about what they want.
Feeling entitled to take something and acting upon those desires using fraudulant means is not acceptable. Luckily, more and more people in society are fed up with turning a blind eye to what has been deemed normal for far too long. There is a new normal on the horizon. This law is just the tip of the iceberg. Get used to it. It’s time to start taking a good hard look at your selfish and your crude conditionings.
Well said Paula!
Paula, you must be talking about White Men when you say, “Men receive higher pay for less education. They receive better rates for everything from car loans to mortgages.” Otherwise that is TOTALLY and absolutely untrue!
Oh, so then not all men are victims of this so-called bias society targeting men you describe? Who is your demographic? All men? Or just men who think they’re victims? Or men who see themselves in the law too much?
So maybe if we write convoluted laws to make more men guilty of rape, that’ll knock ’em down a few pegs. Is that what this is about?
“Get used to it” oooh. Actually I don’t have to get used to it, Paula because Short’s law is the kind of hamhanded , semi- fascist law that American’s don’t want to see on the books, in the vast majority of states, except a couple of backwaters like Alabama and New Jersey. As for the tv ads and shows, I’ve never met more than handful of men who behave as foolishishly, lunkishly and clownishly as the males portrayed on tv , in 60 years of living in this country, and there are certainly as many females of the same ilk. You never see females portrayed this way on television.
You are confusing pay and earn here. Men earn more since they work more. Massive difference.
You must be a comedian. But I laugh at you about as much as I laugh at Bill Cosby these days. Talk about carnal abuse by deceit!
Here is an explanation for you to see the difference: http://www.businessinsider.com/actually-the-gender-pay-gap-is-just-a-myth-2011-3?op=1
Feel free to show your data that shows I’m wrong.
Okay. Since you asked with such interest: http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/08/debunking-the-myth-of-a-mythical-gender-pay-gap/
From what I understand of the article it boils down to these points:
1) women take care of babies more than men and can’t work as much during that, therefore their career is in stand-still while mens one isn’t.
2) women work more on less-paying “women’s jobs”
I can fully agree with the claims of the article that women shouldn’t automatically loose their jobs when they get a parental leave and that the leave should also be offered for men. Though I’m not convinced that it’d make a huge difference considering there is roughly similar pay gap in countries where those problems don’t exist.
#2 essentially boils down to the “problem” that servicing and government sector inherently lives off from people whose job creates a big economic increase of value of whatever they do. Absolutely no one besides people themselves is stopping women from going to the higher paying jobs. “Problem” is, generally those jobs are more dangerous, mentally/physically hard, require lots of overtime or inconvenient in some other way and women generally prefer to have a nice 9-to-5 job instead. In other words, it boils down to choices of individuals.
Norway has often been considered as one of the most gender-equal country in the world but even there the traditional gendered mens/womens jobs still exist. Again, due to the choices people make and not due to any sort of discrimination. There was a documentary investigating it if you are interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70
Another MASSIVE problem with similar paygap studies is that they group together radically different professions. E.g brain surgeons and nurses. The two jobs have nearly nothing in common.
Also, discriminating by gender is already against the law. If anyone does get paid less for the same job done they can just sue their employer. The law has existed in USA for at least half a century if my memory is correct.
Actually, it’s women employers who pay other women less…. here:
https://www.ijreview.com/2015/02/257200-hillary-clinton-paid-female-staff-28-percent-less-men/
that’s Hillary, the advocate for higher pay for women, who paid women-staff 72 cent for every dollar that she paid a man employee.
there was a research done not long ago, Google it, where a majority of women claimed that they’re paid less bc the employer was a female. and everyone of them preferred a male boss. Male employers pay, usually, a female more than a male employee at jobs that require communication skills and good looking appearances . It is mentality like yours that hurts women in america. It is true that some jobs do pay male more than women, the reason – men produce more on those particular fields. it may require a better physique, or it may require a better attendance at work (women get maternity leaves .e.t.c). You stated that MEN receive better rates for everything from car loans to mortgages. I don’t know if that’s true, but common sense tells me that it should. Why? it has nothing to do with gender, rather with your credit. Women, in general, are more careless with Credit Cards. we all know that. they spent like there is no tomorrow.
you said, “They go about life acting like clowns and foolish lunks”,
Have you ever been on Facebook. both genders are acting like clowns ….selfing and twerking are a female thing not a guy thing. In my opinion, both are the most ridiculous things I have ever encountered online.
Remember, if this becomes a law (which i don’t think so!) the prisons will be filled with women.
Paula talks of her “new normal” and expects men to quake in their boots over this day of reckoning when we male rogues and scoundrels will finally be put in our place and “held accountable”. Let’s be real. As Leykis said, these Ms. Short – advocated laws will never get any traction in this country because men will never support it. Sure it may get passed in a state or two but even in those states this law would only be even a potential problem for men who date American white women , whether Jewish, Christian or other. This kind of ridiculousness is a “white women’s law” , it fits their obnoxious, controlling type personalities perfectly. A great many American white males men such as Tom and myself have already long since stopped dating American white women, so even in those states our types won’t have an issue since non-white women just don’t behave in the ludicrous, ridiculous manner that American white women do. They are not going to make fools of themselves by bringing charges against us for claiming to be millionaires, heirs or business owners. They might slap us or pummel us but they aren’t going to run to the police station or a lawyer . I’m obviously not talking about men who commit actual fraud- lying about your income your job, your accomplishments, your car etc is not fraud ,but it will be the kind of thing white women will try to charge us with under these laws, Ms. Short’s claims to the contrary. Once the laws are passed it will the classic bait and switch situation.
Folks-
If you’re wondering why I’m not trashing this comment, it’ s because I think it truly reveals the ignorant, bigoted mindset of people who vehemently oppose SexFraud law!
Tom, thank you for displaying your ignorance so poetically! If I tried to explain how warped your way of thinking is, no one would believe me. Now, it’s irrefutable!
So you are dating women is what you are telling us and not pandered to adult children.
Everything you said is delusional. Men do not ‘get a pass’ for anything. Women are the ones who can verbally humiliate a man all day and we’ll just take it but when a man does that to a woman it’s somehow assault god knows what you crazy females can do with an ordinary situation once you think you have the stage. We go about acting like clowns and foolish lunks? That is very offensive to my gender you must understand how offensive that statement is. The media portrays us that way it’s bullshit sit a man down with a cup of tea he’s not a foolish lunk and hey everyone likes to be a goof once in a while. Your first paragraph especially is 100% wrong I do not know where you get these ideas! If you take anything from this comment realize that men getting higher pay and better loans on cars is bullshit if a man get’s that it’s because he haggled the fuck out of somebody and women can do that too. The feminist movement has accomplished equal treatment and pay under the law, you guys can disband and let genders be equal now. If you keep pushing for female rights it’s going to be uneven. Already a woman can sue a man for all he’s worth with no evidence if she cries rape. Watch me try to do that and nobody gives a fuck. Wanna know why? Tits and a vagina. I say boycott having sex with feminists until they stop pushing to make sex so dangerous for men. Do you realize that men are afraid to get into relationships and start having sex because of all this scary legislation pushed by feminists? We will get bitchslapped by a cop and have our testes crushed from behind while being pushed into the back of a paddywagon FOR NOTHING MORE than having enjoyed consensual sex with a partner whom you trusted, that is until she decided half way through to withdraw consent and claim rape! You must see how this is un fair. And while we are on this topic how many people give a shit if a woman beats the living shit out of their male partner? They are supposed to just be strong and suck it up. THE LEGISLATION UNFAIRLY FAVORS WOMAN ALREADY ANYONE WHO KNOWS THE LAW KNOWS THIS
A education in gender studies and communication does not make women useful it just makes them bigoted.
Men EARN more because they work longer hours, in harder jobs that are in poor or dangerous conditions.
Women earn less because they do less hours, in easy jobs where breaking a nail is very unlikely.
This law would be irrelevant in a society where women were not lazy, entitled, gold digging whores.
Carl-
We certainly know where your biases lie!
men work harder, longer hours and in more dangerous jobs.
Younger women behave like drunken sluts and older women behave like whores and neither accept responsibility for the circumstances those attitudes result in.
Carl-
I can’t imagine a more misogynist statement. I’m sure glad I’m not your mother, your wife, your lover, your sister or your daughter!
With every word out of your mouth, you prove the horrific antipathy you have for women. It’s quite appalling. And what’s even more horrific is that you’re not the only person who feels that way.
Society needs to find our moral core, where all people, regardless of their gender, are respected and valued. And I hope, by acknowledging how hideous the behavior is of defrauding someone of sex, whether a man or woman, we can begin to build a platform of dignity for everyone.
Paula, you are dead wrong.
Forbes had an article showing that the “78 cent” statistic was a lie.. once adjusted for type of job and education, it was 96 cents per dollar than women make. That other 4 cents was correctly identified by those women who are likely to leave the work force at any time because they just entered their fertile years and got married, so in general, women have a tiny bit less seniority than men do.. in other words, there is ZERO wage gap anymore. Period.
The reason ‘White Males’ get better interest rates is because they have better Credit Scores, on the whole, and you can’t say that has anything to do with gender.
The reason White Males are more fully employed as a demographic is because they will do the shitty jobs women refuse to do. Don’t believe me? 93% of all work place fatalities are endured by men. Also there are near zero female lumberjacks, crab fishermen, oil workers, sewage workers, garbagemen, plumbers, and so on.
The reason women have less money than men is because they just don’t want to do (or dont have the aptitude to do) the jobs that pay more money, aka the hard trades and the dangerous jobs.
And even with that, there is no gap, once you consider equal education and working conditions.
So thats a complete fabrication.
Next .. the 1 in 4 rape statistic.. would you be surprised to know that 25% stat came from a survey done at TWO COLLEGES? Yes you heard that right.. TWO colleges were surveyed to get that number, then it was generalized to every women in America. We don’t even know how the methodology was to get that 1 in 4 number, how they defined ‘rape’, or if the language was coded to encourage women to answer that they had been raped, when, in reality, they had not been. Regardless, that survey is complete bullshit. Especially when you consider tnat woman are now being shown to be MORE violent than men in domestic situations. http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/19133-women-more-likely-to-commit-domestic-violence-studies-show
So.. what the heck is up here?
Considering that you think that violence is the only way in which rape takes place, I can hardly consider your interpretations credible.
Men also get more pay for near-zero education but with a willingness to do disgusting and dangerous work or th physical ability to do physically demanding labour that would slowly but surely kill a significant percentage of low muscle mass people, but especially females.
Because surely you have seen this happen and can use actual empirical facts to back your claim, right?
This is conceptual and if the way you can see things in the future is restricted by the way things are now, you are condemning yourself through opposing changes.
For what claims do you need evidence for? Just list them and I’ll be happy to provide them.
Any and all.
Considering that right in the middle of Tom’s show was an advertisement for “Step-Ups,” otherwise known as the lifts that go into men’s shoes to make them look taller, one could hardly say that disqualifying appearance enhancements is a sexist or biased concept.
People use apperarance enhancements for a myriad of reasons, not connected to sex. If you want to know what the person looks like without their appearance enhancement… ask them to remove them before you engage in sex. Don’t like what you see, walk away. Your call.
Joyce, did you hear what you just said? You said, “If you want to know what the person looks like without their appearance enhancement… ask them to remove them before you engage in sex. Don’t like what you see, walk away. Your call.” That exactly the point of the people who disagree with the notion of “rape by fraud.” The best way to avoid being raped by fraud is to keep your legs closed until you get married. If a man wants sex from a woman and she wants to know if his intentions are sincere or fraudulent, require that he marry her and put a ring on her finger before she lays down and spreads her legs. And if he doesn’t marry you WALK AWAY! YOUR CALL! You see if they were not promiscuous whores in the first place they would not be in that situation to be raped by fraud.
Now you’re putting a restriction in play that absolutely does not exist in society or in the law. We no longer punish people for having premarital sex. And the people engaging in sex are both entitled to being able to have freely given, knowing consent to the act…. in other words, no one has the right to defraud them into the act. And putting a ring on someone’s finger does not stop people from carrying out their hoax. Many offenders will, in fact, put a ring on their victim’s finger as part of their sham.
This comment is so wrong on so many different levels. We are not all promiscuous whores because we want a relationship, quite the opposite.
The problem is, in my case, and so many others,the men not only lie, they don’t even listen to consent lines. I told this man that I do not believe in casual sex, that I was only looking for a relationship, gave examples from my childhood and flat out told him I wasn’t looking just to get laid, there was his many queues to walk away…..right? I mean he wasn’t bad looking and could just move on but he didn’t.
He just had to play a game and when it played out he called and admitted taking advantage of me and using me for sex.
And as for your comment about waiting for marriage – sometimes that does not happen so stay alone- I am going on 5 years now. I don’t recommend that either. What horrible choices either go out and be used or stay alone – how sad!
Yeah.. Google ‘The Sexodus’ for an eye opening perspective you may not like. I dont agree with everything in it, but its an interesting counter opinion.
As a person in the law, I find this blog interesting. I am all for people expressing themselves and blogs like this can produce a valuable service to get people to really examine our modern day society.
I would ask you, Ms. Short, to consider your summary statement: “Legally valid consent is required by law in all human interaction.” Laws in many instances do require valid consent, but there lots of instances in the law where consent is implied even without actual intent to consent. Furthermore, the law does govern many human interactions, but most certainly does not govern all human interactions.
I think laws to address the issues you present are going to require lots of finesse. Laws like this can present many challenges from the burden of proof, defining judicial tests, appropriate resource allocations, and even some constitutional issues. Not that these issues should preclude making necessary laws. All too often politicians and law makers make “knee-jerk legislation.” Later, such legislation is either repealed or ruled to violate the constitution (either state or federal government). I think you are in this in for the long game.
Something on your blog site you may also want consider, your CAD registry. Unless, these people have had due process of law or quasi-judicial proceedings and found guilty of these offenses, the registry maybe considered libelous–even with your disclaimer. Again, you are in this movement for the long haul and a spear head for the movement, and I don’t think you need to do anything that can detract from your main intention.
Regards,
Eric
Thanks for your comments Eric. I will give serious consideration to all of them.
I’m not involved in how the laws will play out in actual usage. All I can do is recognize a wrong, and endeavor to bring about a change. How it’s implemented, however, is up to the law makers and the courts, not me.
As in any change, we have to have faith in the system. If we refrained from recognizing crime because abuses could take place, we wouldn’t punish murder, or burglary or any other criminal act.
Joyce
Your intentions are so transparent its unbelievable… Women are in it for resources. You wouldn’t sleep with a guy who was poor, and if it turns out he is poor, then you want some legal recourse. Literally so pathetic. Start taking responsibility for your actions.
Joe,
The one thing that’s absolutely transparent from your comment is that you are a contemptuous misogynist. Thanks for giving us a glimpse into that mindset.
Joyce
I’m joyce, I reserve the right to remove all comments when all they are doing is insulting people and ignoring the topic at hand. OH WAIT A FUCKING SECOND WHATS GOING ON HERE
People can easily see how much leeway I’ve given you. Some things are just too offensive.
My blog….. sorry. Write your own if you don’t think I should push the delete button when you are woefully out of line.
if misogynist means having contempt for women then i guess i am one as far as women who support your stupid law idea.
You deserve misogyny.
Carl-
You seem to think that women are the only ones who support this legislation. Wrong again.
People with emotional empathy and morality favor passage of this bill. And they exist on both sides of the gender aisle. In fact the law was introduced in NJ by a man.
Obviously, people who think that sex is a commodity, nothing by warm flesh and body fluids, and that they should get “it” regardless of the cost to the victim, don’t support this law.
That’s looking very much like you.
Joyce,
You’re spot on with all the leading experts in the field, such as Dr. Hare. Your work and your voice on this subject is much needed and appreciated. To those with ignorance in their comments – take the time to open a book or two. The psychology is there for everyone to educate themselves before speaking with ignorance. Keep up the good work Joyce, you have many supporters!!!
Thank you so much for your kind words!
Joyce
Alright anon, let’s have a talk then. I highly doubt you’ve taken the time to open a book or two, but if you have, let’s hear the synopsis! Just saying, when one is going to call out ignorance, the burden rests with them to prove the ignorance. So let’s hear it.
AngryIntellect,
You obviously just want to fight with people. You do not know me or what my background is, or what I have read – which is plenty. On a different subject, one thing I have learned is you can’t have a fair discussion with somebody dead set on what he says goes, it’s already pointless. Your entitled to your opinion as is anybody else. The difference is that you conduct yourself in a disgusting, combative manner, and whether you are male or female nobody wants to talk with someone acting like that.
Amen!
Well, lets just hope that Little Miss Pure here, is as she claims, as pure as the drivin’ snow, because if shes NOT as she claims, she’s gonna be plastered all over the internet ! The slightest little thing, anything, shes lied about, going to come back to bite her hard, anything !
and now the research and investigative work begins 🙂 !
You have a good day – Miss Snow !!!
“Inspector Callahan”,
You are simply showing a purely vicious and vindictive spirit. Instead of arguing the point, you’re attacking the person. I never claimed to be “pure as the driven’ snow.” I’m a human being with frailties just like any other human being. But I would never mis-state my identity or intent in order to have sex with anyone.
One of the reasons people keep quiet and fail to bring about needed change is because they fear vicious threats and attacks. You are a bully. And worse, you are a bully who is hiding behind anonymity, an even lower form.
Change commonly engenders ridicule and anger. Your comment is a perfect example.
Let the buyer beware is a good saying. Using good judgement and teaching the value that you do not take everything on face value to your children. Women lie to will they be under the same laws?
I am all for telling or showing someone ID but the old saying goes fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.
now my last question Have you ever told a lie, untruth, etc for what ever reason
Sexual partners are not “buyers.” And intimating that they are is the kind of misconception that necessitates rape by fraud law.
Defrauding someone of sex is a crime, period.
Not all lies are crimes. Lies that create a sexual hoax are crimes. And no, I have never created a sexual hoax of any kind.
Ask a stupid question, you’ll get a stupid answer, so yes, when my best friend asked if her dress looked okay, as we were standing in a place where she could do nothing about it, I told her “yes.”
The the question becomes when does sex begin? Sex begins long before the two people hit the bedroom. It is process. At what point can you say a lie was used to “rob” a person of sex. When a woman walks through the office, or through society scantily clad wearing layers of makeup and hair weaves then when you get her home she is extremely ugly and near bald, in the man’s opinion (because this law is predicated on an opinion) she has committed rape by fraud. If the man can produce before and after photos, people in the jury may agree that she intentionally induced the man into bed.
There is no mystery when SEXUAL PENETRATION begins and ends. Rape is about sexual penetration, not about romance. It’s about defrauding a person in order to sexually penetrate them.
No, no, no . . . You are asserting that a person should be held responsible for the actual language used to set in motion the events that lead to sexual penetration; not simply the penetration. You are using the term “fraud” which suggests “misrepresentation”, “trickery” and “deceit”. In law, fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain. Most often fraud occurs in the solicitation stage of an act prior to the victim actually signs the contract or agrees to the thing they are being defrauded of. Therefore IT IS rape by fraud when a woman uses hair weaves, facial makeup to the point where it alters her identity, colored eye contacts, breast implants, butt injections, lip injections, tattooed eyebrows to stalk and eventually catch her prey. Yes, indeed! Women have more of a capacity to commit this crime than Men. You need to find something better to do with your time.
Michael Williams-
Actually, no…. it’s a deliberate lie to secure unlawful gain. I’ve stated the 5 stages of fraud both here and in my book. You’re trying to reinvent the wheel and be dismissive.
And, by the way, women aren’t the only ones who use appearance enhancements to make themselves attractive. Men wear lifts in their shoes, and tuopees. They dye their hair. They get nose jobs and botox injections. They body-build using steroids. Women aren’t the only ones.
Truth is, a person’s use of appearance enhancements are not specifically to engage in sex. A woman wears makeup frequently. The plugs in a man’s scalp are there 24/7. But sexual hoaxes are specifically designed to conduct SexFraud.
It sounds as though you believe that “grown” Women are a weaker gender by nature; and are incapable of responsibly choosing who they have sex with.
Michael W.
You have just used the operative word….. CHOICE. Duplicity undermines choice in ALL THINGS, including sex. Deception INVALIDATES consent. A person who TRICKS someone into their sexual CHOICE is sexually EXPLOITING them, not seducing them.
You buy an Iphone. You get home. The guy at the store switched it for a crummy old flip phone that he stuck in the box. He defrauded you. YOU did not CHOOSE the flip phone. When you march back into the store and tell him “This isn’t the phone I chose,” is it okay for him to say, “But you walked out of the store with it, so it is.”
How absurd!!
Now imagine that instead of it being a crummy phone that he switched up on you, it’s the sexual penetration of your genitalia that took place by the same ruse. And if you don’t get that, you simply have no concept of the difference between simple assault and sexual assault, and why sexual assault, (rape,) is the more defiling crime.
No one “chooses” you when you lie. They are tricked by you when you lie.
If penetration is the key part of the definition of rape, you have effectively made it a male only crime.
But, if I buy a cell phone and later find out the phone just isn’t as great as I thought it would be, I don’t have a legal recourse to prosecute the guy that sold it to me. It is up to me to research what I’m going to buy before I make the purchase. It is the same with sex. The onus is on a person to ensure that the person they are investing their sexual energies into is worth what they’re investing.
I am forced to reply here because joyce knows she can’t enable replies for her above comment. Deceit does not invalidate consent. You are consenting to be penetrated by the penis you see in front of you, the bank account behind that penis isn’t being shoved into your vagina now is it!???!! If you really are in it to educate people on why this law needs to be passed then please explain to me how deceit over anything other than one’s physical form invalidates consent for an action that is purely physical, (yeah emotions and stuff are there too but we’ll group em in with physical to differentiate from bank accounts, job standing, house, etc). Please I am truly very curious you have me confused here
You have no right to fool someone into a physical act involving their sex organs. And if you think penetrating someone sexually is like shaking their hand, I can’t help you. You are simply character disordered and lack emotional empathy.
Not true, Boozer! Just make sure she puts a finger into your slot B when you have sex and you have been penetrated sexually.
Bob-
Not necessary-
The law is about an “act of sexual penetration.” It’s gender neutral. A person can engage in an act of sexual penetration by being either the penetrator or the penetratee.
“Act of sexual penetration” is genderless.
It costs the government $448,532 to prosecute a single rape case. (http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2010/10/true_crime_costs.html) You are proposing to expand the definition of rape to include rape-by-fraud. Can you put some numbers behind this? How many of these rape-by-fraud cases are occurring compared to traditional rape cases? How many do you expect to be prosecuted? How do you propose the government would pay for the increased expense — increased taxes, or other cases not get prosecuted? If the latter, which cases would you not prosecute?
Set the merits aside for a minute. This appears to be doable only in an imaginary world with infinite resources. Can you speak to this?
We need to do something about the rapists – not the victims.
Numbers Guy
I see…. so according to your philosophy, we should simply base our concept of crime on the cost of prosecutions. Let’s see…. if we don’t prosecute robbery or assault….. look how much money society can save! Preposterous argument, isn’t it!
And, by the way, what you’re saying is this happens so frequently, courts will be burdened. How ’bout looking at it more realistically……
When people figure out they can go to jail by creating a sexual hoax, they’ll stop doing so. Do you really think people will risk going to jail by defiling others without the ease with which they do it today? It will significantly curtail the volume of harm that is currently taking place in society. The people who care to prevent this law, are people who want to continue raping by fraud or allowing others to do so.
Every objection comes from someone who is interested in preserving society’s right to defile others.
Ms. Short your logic is faulty only honest people obey the law or else we would not have courts, prisons or police. There is real violence out there happening to children men and women. The cost of adding a new law should be considered and you have to house these people as well. Maybe this would be better to be handled under civil law instead of criminal law.
Governments job is not to protect you from faulty judgment but life& liberty and I say by all means ask for ID and do a back ground check but your saying let’s take someone to court for someone’s else’s bad judgment?
Robert-
Since when is rape “bad judgement.” You are a victim blamer.
You are quite wrong about only honest people obeying laws. If that were true, we would have no laws because dishonest people would not pay attention to them. Laws are not designed to stop well-behaved people from breaking them. They’re designed to curb the behavior of those who would otherwise not be reigned in.
We have laws to deter crime. And regardless that you personally don’t recognize the terrible defilement people who experience rape by fraud feel, it is a serious crime. It destroys lives.
It takes emotional empathy to relate to how a person would be harmed by SexFraud. It’s apparent that you lack it. You are not alone. A large portion of society thinks it’s perfectly acceptable to defraud a person of sex. That’s why this law is so important. Society’s outrageous disregard for the sexual sanctity of others is at an all-time high. Studies have shown that one-third of the dating pool claim they a single when they are married, and that is only one identity lie.
Rape is not bad judgment, it’s s crime. Getting drunk and taking a stranger home is bad judgement, letting him into your bed is bad judgement. If he forces you to have sex he should be arrested, but if he was given the opportunity to commit this crime thanks to bad judgement.
“When people figure out they can go to jail by creating a sexual hoax, they’ll stop doing so”
Is there any particular reason why “having sex by deceit” can’t be judged under already existing anti-fraud laws?
I was not trying to make a philosophical statement. I was trying to ask a logistal question. Many people come up with pie in the sky ideas with absolutely no plan or path for making those ideas a reality. The question of how you intend to make the rubber meet the road is a legitimate one. For example, touching someone’s buttocks without their consent is misdemeanor sexual assault, but how vigeriously do you expect DAs to prosecute such cases? At the end of the day, the DA has a budget and must pick and choose the most egregious crime. Asking how your cases fit into this process is one you must answer for your idea to have traction.
I think I’ve made it very clear that only egregious cases, those that the hoax has been extreme to the extent that there is actual documented proof and the victim has, indeed, acted with reasonable responsibility, would be prosecuted.
The press is simply building hysteria by their absurd examples.
People don’t analyze whether stealing is a crime based on whether the Prosecutor will have a budget to pursue charges against the offender. So I think that rationale is flawed.
it really is unfair to infer one’s philosophy from one comment about statistics./ Also his name is numbersguy he’s here to share the numbers comon listen to them
lol that’s a whole nother side that she won’t even consider. It’s not as if this law is in any way constitutional or would ever get passed anyway. This is just an absurd feminist notion that will never pass in the court of law. not as long as we approach the argument with logic and reason, the antithesis of modern feminism. (Hey I was all down for feminism when they were trying to gain equal human rights as a person under the constitution and fair wages!, and we’ve accomplished that, so let’s slow down and be equal!)
There are two recent convictions of rape by fraud in Australia. Two are pending in India. It’s the law in Alabama and Tennessee, and aspects of rape by fraud are the law in several additional states.
With all due respect to victims of ACTUAL RAPE, where they have been forced against their will. This is a slap in the face to those real victims.
People exaggerate, people lie, people can be embarrassed by circumstance, this is not rape. Let me guess you REALLY thought the guy you met at Wal-Mart was a closet millionaire? Or the cAr he was driving was a rental? The only reason you slept with someone was because you he told you he was rich? Or liked kids? And now you are so petty you want revenge.
Fine as long as women can be charged with rape for padding or using a push up bra. Wearing stockings to hold in the pouch or hide the stretch marks, wearing make up to hide any blemish or deformities Will also be prosecuted as rape by fraud. Jails are going to be filled with useless, ugly, small chested women.. hey that gets rid of 85% of FemaNazi liberal women, so maybe it’s not a bad idea
Martin-
We don’t tell theft victims, (deprived of their assets by a non-violent means,) that their cases are a slap in the face of robbery victims, (deprived of their assets through a violent means or with a weapon.) Both victims have, indeed, been harmed and are entitled to justice. And their offenders are subject to consequences.
There are many forms of rape, and law-makers have long recognized, not all of them are violent. A victim can be deprived of their “knowing consent” by being doped, intoxicated, coerced, and embroiled in sex when underage or mentally incapacitated. Just as a person can conduct “theft by fraud,” they can also conduct “sexual assault by fraud.”
It’s because of the public’s misconception that rape requires “violence” that most states no longer use the term “rape” in their statutes and have opted for “sexual assault,” “sexual battery,” “sexual misconduct,” or other ways to express that sexual exploitation has taken place. Simply put, rape, or sexual assault, occurrs when the victim is sexually penetrated without their “knowing” consent. And consent that is defrauded is not consent at all.
Someone who jumps into bed with the “closet-millionaire at Wal-Mart,” or the guy who rents his car, cannot expect protection under this law for two reasons:
1. People must behave in a reasonable fashion (the current litmus test that already exists in NJ law.) That basically means, they must behave responsibly…. otherwise known as don’t jump into the sack with a stranger and expect the law to protect you.
2. Victims must provide significant proof of the manner in which the offender tricked them in order to convince the police, Prosecutor and Grand Jury to indict the offender.
You’ve been listening to too many silly scenarios manufactured by the media to cause hysteria. Reality does not sell newspapers or draw the public to self-serving attention grabbers.
And your exaggerated concerns over people who wear push-up bras and make-up are just as ridiculous as your “Wal-Mart, car rental” examples.
Very well said. . .
Indeed the victims of actual rape are too angry and emotional to comment on this. They let honest, logically thinking males do it for them, and we will. The commentator earlier who said she’d rather get raped by a stranger than have sex with this dude she went on several dates with is fucked. Somebody who actually got raped is balling their eyes out after reading that unable to understand how someone can be so ignorant and self righteous. If that person really believes that statement IMO they deserve to get brutally raped by a drunken stranger and know what they are talking about when they try to confuse a very real crime with feminist bullshit.
Angry-
There are several followers here that have been violently raped and suffered rape by fraud as well. You are way off base.
Violent rape is “real rape.” And rape by fraud is also “real rape.” In fact, highly acclaimed legal commentator, Susan Estrich, who was the first female Editor of Harvard Law Review, wrote her book back in the early 80’s about it. Guess what the name of her book is…… “Real Rape.”
You don’t know what you’re talking about!
The opinion of someone with an Ideological axe to grind does not carry any water with me. The socially accepted definition is “Sexual Assault through FORCE’. That is to say, PHYSICALLY sexually assaulting someone without their consent. That is why women are using the ‘Rape’ word so often these days. Thera are even women saying that it is rape if a man CHANGES POSITION WITHOUT ASKING. Seriously? Do we have to make up a sex contract before engaging in sex with women anymore? What if a women is giving us a blowjob, without her hands, and then suddenly starts using her hands.. and we didn’t consent to it.. is THAT rape? In teh first case, the woman was already penetrated, by her consent, and she is calling the position switch RAPE. See where this is going?
Keep on this course, Joyce. You will get what you are asking for.. 70, alone, in abject poverty and alone.
Sorry.. I typed all of that too quickly.. apologies for the repetition and spelling errors.
The legally accepted definition is that force is required for any penetration, therefore penetration without consent is sexual assault.
Here is the legally accepted definition of sexual assault in most states throughout the US- “Non-consensual sex.”
And here is the definition of “consent.” “Consent is invalid when induced by deception.”
Connect the dots.
Man, I have a huge list of women that have told be that they were single and this turned out not to be true and I had sex with all of them. I want these rapists off the streets. Who can you recommend in IL that would be the best lawyer to uphold this situation in my favor.
First off, if you simply jumped into bed with them without behaving responsibly, no one can help you. But if they embroiled you in a hoax, and you can prove they did so, and if a “reasonable person” would have found them credible, as you did, their behavior would have defrauded you of sex.
Doing so is not a civil action. You would not go to a lawyer to bring a case. If sexual assault by fraud was a criminal offense in your state, you would file a police report.
No one should lie about their identity characteristics, or their intent, when engaging in sex with you.
Females lie. You lie. What in the world give you the right to put a man in jail for something that you do, have done and will do again?
This is beyond insanity and you are evil beyond measure!
First of all, you don’t know me. You have no idea whether or not I lie. But lying alone is not a crime. Lying to sexually penetrate someone is.
“Lying to sexually penetrate someone is”
Can you name the law, please?
“Lying to sexually penetrate someone is a crime.” so you’re implying that Lying to get sexually penetrated by someone is not. So this law is only to protect women?!?
You’re putting words in my mouth and making an assumption.
I’m implying nothing, but you’re inferring based on your perspective.
so explain it then if you lie to get sexually penetrated is that a crime? Some chick lies to me saying she has a car we have sex then it turns out she doesn’t. I walk home that night. Can I sue for a hoax? See I was under the impression I’d be getting a ride after sex and because I didn’t I was xxxxxxx xxxxx all the way home. She deliberately tricked me into penetrating her so now I’ve had sex and have no car. SO BASICALLY I’M RIGHT WHERE I FUCKING STARTED MINUS THE SEX. So tell me exactly why anyone should owe the other something in this scenario?
There are two very important issues that you are overlooking in who can be arrested for this crime:
1. The victim would have to have behaved responsibly, which means it’s not going to prosecute when the victim hardly knows you but jumps in bed with you.
2. Substantial proof must exist in order to prosecute any crime. This is no different.
I’m editing your text because of its graphic nature. Take it to Tom Leykis, not here. Thanks!
I was in romantic relationship with this woman. She always told me that she wants to have family with me, that she wants us to have children. Then one day – great news, she’s pregnant. I’m all happy, supportive, she’s now a goddess to me, I want to be with her for the rest of my life… But she is suddenly all skeptic, she stops talking to me like before, more nervous… After few days she tells me that she doesn’t want kids, doesn’t want to be in relationship with me anymore and aborts.
If I knew those things before (that she doesn’t want to have children or anything really serious with me), I certainly wouldn’t even start relationship with her, let alone spend few years with her.
I felt so violated on all levels after that. So, with your law she will be persecuted with repeated rape charges? Because I was led to believe that she is a person who believes in marriage, who wants kids, and who wants this things with me. Nothing changed in a few days while she was pregnant, and there was no real reason to make decision totally opposite of what she always told me she wants.
I believe I’m a victim of a fraud and a victim of repeated rape.
Pisonja-
I’m so sorry to hear of your misfortune and I understand why you feel the way you do.
There are basically two types of lies that people tell in committing rape by fraud: lies of intent and lies of identity.
Lies of identity are much more finite and therefore, more prosecutorial. Your age can’t be 31 and 46 at the same time. Either you’re a college graduate or a high school dropout. You can’t be both.
Lies of intent are far more difficult to prove in a courtroom. A Prosecutor would likely not take a case in which an offender could defend their actions by simply stating “I changed my mind,” even when you know it’s not true.
That being said; however, whether or not your case warrants prosecution cannot and will not change the sense of defilement and betrayal you feel in your circumstance.
I wish you success in healing from this ordeal, and hope you’ll find the right person to start the family you long for.
All the best-
Joyce
Unless you were sexually penetrated, you have no recourse. If you lied to her along the way she can retroactively withdraw consent and have you arrested.
I’m simply unable to follow your logic. Perhaps you can explain your point differently.
I’m combining your stated definition of rape with your stated definition of consent and applying it to that gentleman’s situation.
Which is exactly why this should be ‘Sexual Fraud’ and apply to ‘Any and All sexual acts involving a person’s genitals for the purpose of sexual gratification’
Different states will use different terms. I simply use the generic term because the terminology varies so widely from state to state.
I am pretty sure that a large proportion of dating site profiles have at least one lie in them somewhere. Women often lie about their age for example. If you claim to be 38, when you are in fact 42 and then have sex, would that be considered rape?
Mal-
When you lie about your identity characteristics, you are altering a person’s impression of who you are. If you don’t straighten out this misconception BEFORE you engage in sex, you have duped them into the act. Why would someone be entitled to having sex with another person under false pretense?
I often say that lying is not a crime, but defrauding someone is. So here’s a perfect example of when a lie becomes a crime.
You shape a person’s concept of “you” with what you say to them. And if you shape yourself to be someone through false personation, you are using identity characteristics that are not “yours” in order to sexually penetrate them.
Because of the significant amount of lies that internet dating sites are known for, I suggest checking an internet date’s ID prior to advancing the relationship.
Obviously, if you meet them and experience no attraction, there’s no need. But if you feel inclined to see them again, exchanging ID would be a good idea. If they resist, it’s a pretty good sign that you should walk away.
When someone asks for an ID check, it’s the right time to confess the lies you wrote into your profile. And if everyone who participated in internet dating, made this a regular practice, you would see the lies diminish. What would be the sense if you would be found out before the relationship got anywhere, and your having lied would paint you as untrustworthy.
Thanks for your thought provoking question.
Joyce
in other words, yes, those women would be guilty of rape
But women lie even more than men. Are you OK with them going to jail for this rape of men or not? A clear, yes or no answer would be good. Thank you.
If a woman rapes a man, she should go to jail for doing so. Again, rape law should be gender neutral, even though, in some states, it’s not. In many states, however, the term “he” is also interpreted as “she.”
“Again, rape law should be gender neutral”
Wait, didn’t you earlier say that sex is defined by penetration happening? How can a woman rape a man by that definition?
Easy. I just claim she put a finger into me during intercourse.
Morals and values missing? Yes, they certainly are missing…from your comment. If you want to increase the chances of meeting partners and/or friends with morals and values, you must first start by modeling morals and values in your own life. If you make it a continued habit and practice to be morally corrupt in all of your thoughts, actions and behaviors, the majority of the people you attract will also be morally corrupt. Good luck to you, Yoga Meister!
This happened to me last year, and I was devastated. I would have NEVER had sex with the person if I knew they were married. This assailant lied to my face about being married just to get sex. I unwittingly committed adultery, which I view as a grave sin. I had to seek therapy and counselling from my church. I still have not gotten over the trauma, and my reputation has been ruined.
I can’t wait for this law to pass. And when it does, I’m going to have my assailant arrested and charged with rape. Can you please tell me how many years in prison she will get if convicted? She’s now divorced, and I have spoken to her ex husband about this, and he will testify against her also. Women like this need to be put away for many many years.
Thank you for all the work you’re doing. God bless.
Pat-
I’m sorry to hear of your misfortune. And I appreciate your coming forward with your story.
I wish I had a nickle for every time people have faulted me for being sexist over this law. They simply don’t understand what gender neutral means, or that this happens to both men and women.
Unfortunately, laws don’t prosecute retroactively. While she won’t get put away for what she did to you, you have the clarity that what happened to you was indeed a crime. And I hope knowing that you are every bit entitled to the feelings that devastated you provides validation and enables you to heal.
All the best!
Joyce
>Unfortunately, laws don’t prosecute retroactively.
Thankfully there is no statute of limitations on rape. Once this law passes, she is going down. I’ve already met with a prosecutor and he assures me he will remove her from society for the protection of other rape victims like myself. Predators like this – be warned! Your days of freedom are numbered.
What state are you in?
lying about marital status is shitty but hey sleeping with a liar shouldn’t be a crime as long as you weren’t penetrated against your will. Everytime you have sex you assume a risk, no law will change that. You decide to trust somebody. It may or may not pay off. That’s life. Not rape.
You were penetrated against your “will!” You did not “will” penetration when you are defrauded of your “will.”
No agreement is agreement when it’s achieved through dishonesty.
Liars don’t get it. You are showing your true colors.
My thoughts on this:
The base idea is pretty good. Even though this essay doesn’t directly attack men, it seems very biased and implies only women fall victim here. So I think it should be more inclusive
1.Men or women who like to con people out of money should go to jail, no denying that. Especially if it is not one night stand and they drain their victim out of money and abuse them. But EXTORTION is already punishable by law.
2. “Offenders who deliberately defraud a victim, by hiding a life-altering communicable illness, should be punished as an “aggravated” offense.” That’s true but it should apply to both sexes of any orientation. But I think it is already punishable by law.
3. “Offenders who deliberately defraud a victim by posing as a lover or doctor (and then inserting their “private parts” instead of a medical instrument,) should be punished as an “aggravated” offense.” That is a rape, plain and simple. But this should apply to both sexes of any orientation and include not only “doctors” but also “nurses”.
All those clearly require punishment by law.
And here’s where I see a problem with this idea. Let’s face it, it will be mostly used by women who had a one night stand with a man only to learn they had sex with a janitor and not a lawyer. It’s immoral and pathetic on the part of those men. However comparing it to rape is an offence to rape victims who suffered through real trauma.
Also a man and a woman should be responsible for their actions and decisions. All my life I’ve been hearing all this talk that a man shouldn’t judge a woman by her looks but her personality. I agree with that and it should apply to both sexes. But if a woman makes a decision to sleep with a man just based on his income and status ? Where is this “personality before other things” value in that case?
What about those heterosexual men and WOMEN who get tricked by transmen and transwomen who had operations? Don’t we have the right to know if our partner was biologically a man or woman in the past? That is important because these people invest feelings, time and recourses only to learn they’ve been lied to about this. (I am sorry to all transmen and women who feel hurt by this remark but we can’t assume that ANY group of people in the society is innocent and good by default. And I understan that many transmen and women face great obstacles and persecution or even violence because some people still find it wrong and therefore they are forced to lie in order to find a partner and avoid violence. But please don’t forget about feelings of those people who are being lied to about this.)
Also let’s not forget:
-Men or women who lie about their marital status.
-Gay or lesbian women who do this to other gay and lesbian people. Especially if there is an age and financial status difference where an older partner manipulates his or her partner and uses for sexual needs then discards for new young partner. And the reverse situation where younger partner uses the older partner’s feelings to gain recourses and status.
-Considering recent rape culture paranoia and false rape accusations you are leading to a situation where women will be afraid to date men because all of them are potential rapists or frauds and men will be afraid to date because the next day after sex they will be accused of rape. That will be the time when before having sex people will have to sign a 30 pages long document so that both sides will be satisfied and feel safe. And both women and men will have to carry a recording device like a camera and document every second of the interaction (Just in case!). On the other hand, I am not a fan of one night stands either so I guess it shouldn’t concern me and I don’t care much about all those pick-up artists who trick women into bed or women who also do that to men (YES! Men also might look for a long term relationship and will feel used afterwards).
-Also doctors and nurses will be afraid to touch their patients. And how do you ask for permission from his/her patient or accident victim who is unconscious?
And yea, Tom made a valid argument:
“Many men are lied to everyday. How many have heard ” I can’t get pregnant” ? Then comes the news they are going to be a dad. They should have abstained or used protection. I propose that abstaining may be more viable advise. Please reply .” YES, please reply to that too. Because the level of the naivety of those men equals the level naivety of women who fall victim to a pick-up artists or some other slime. So they also should be protected from their own mistakes and not well thought-out decisions.
This whole idea implies that all women never lie or are innocent by default and also need to be protected from making bad decisions, like children. Let’s treat people like adults and hold them accountable for their actions and maybe teach them how think critically instead of instituting a law that will make them dumb and gullible (Because they will believe that everyone speaks the truth, so there will be even more victims ). And I am not writing this as an MRA, MRM or MGTOW, chauvinist or homophobe. I am writing this as man who believes in equality for everyone. If there is a falacy here, just point it out. I like to learn and have my opnions challanged.
Best regards,
Mark Berne
At no time have I ever said or implied that rape by fraud only happens to women. The law is entirely gender neutral.
Passing along communicable illnesses through fraud is only punishable in a handful of states.
A doctor can be both a man or a woman. It is said as an example not as a finite or limiting term. This portion of the law already exists in many states, and has for several years. It has not caused a problem in the past.
People must act responsibly. If you jump into bed with a stranger, this law will not protect you. And 90% of the silly scenarios people raise as objections to this law are based on the concept that it would apply. It won’t. “He-said, she-said” will not be the basis of a case of rape by fraud.
But when the offender blocks the discovery of information pursued by a “reasonable person” standard, (the actual term already in use in the laws of NJ,) an offense takes place.
There is absolutely nothing I have written or ever will write that implies that this law is anything but gender neutral. When men are harmed, the act is just as egregious as when women are harmed. I have said this over and over again, but people keep raising the same point despite my efforts at making this clear.
They keep raising the point because gender neutrality is a farce. You know it. I know it and every living breathing should who reads this drivel understands clearly that this is directed straight a men only! Even your own explanation of why you came up with this insanity was because of what your male partner supposedly did to you. We of course, have zero proof of any of that but nevertheless;
are you raping me with this lie???
You are truly showing your lack of comprehension regarding rape. I don’t even know you. I’ve never laid eyes on you, how could I possible be sexually penetrating you?
I assume that women who lie about themselves will also be charged with raping men?
The law is gender neutral.
boy I can’t wait for this law to be passed! All I’ll need to do is find some chick to tell me she’s rich before we bang and hopefully she was lying so I can sue her for everything she’s worth! In fact, I should start taking questions right before we do it so just in case she misrepresents an answer I can charge her with rape! Because after all, why would I want to have sex with someone who likes my little pony? Even today this face wells up with tears when I think of that nasty xxxxx xxxxxx that I so not would have penetrated if only I knew. Thank god for this law now I can sleep on a pillow of money to wash away the taint. That’s about the level of logic that exists on this website.
No proof, no personal responsibility. No case. But more language that required editing. 🙂
except, wait, no it isn’t because legally it’s impossible for a woman to commit rape
Has that ever been the case with ANY OTHER supposedly gender neutral laws passed?
Exactly. Not even close.
I rest my case
And that means absolutely nothing.
Alabama and Tennessee
I told a chick that I drove a Ferrari and she immediately wanted to have sex with me. Afterwards we were sitting on the couch and she asks “Can you give me a ride home now? It’s getting kinda late.” and my roommate heard her and responded “On what, his bike??” Her jaw immediately dropped and she looked at me and I told her “yea it’s true, I only drive a bicycle.” I couldn’t stop laughing. It was terrific.
Thanks for telling us how easily defiling women comes to you. Would you like to disclose your name so we all know who to stay away from?
How about you just stop bc honestly this law is ridiculous and has a bunch of things that ACTUAL LAWS COVER
Jack-
Even though what you term “actual law” covers rape by fraud, Prosecutors have a hard time understanding and commencing action when sexual assault by fraud occurs. This law will make doing so very straightforward.
Actual law states that non-consensual sex is “sexual assault.”
Actual law says that consent is ineffective when induced by deception.
Actual law defines the tool of fraud.
Still, Prosecutors fail to take action to prosecute claims of sexual assault by fraud or deception.
They don’t fail, in court the only thing that matters tbh is who can disprove who……but even then when something is proven it is up to the jury to decide. And rape by fraud? Really? If I sit there and say I own a chamero to a girl and she practically jumps on me wanting to have sex but she then asks for a ride home and she later finds out I have a 2005 jeep instead…..the real bitch isn’t me….its her, she only had sex with me not for my looks, personality but bc she thought I had alot of money. In court that wouldn’t set at all bc then my lawyer could say (which is actually true) I don’t know nor care for what the name of any car is at all so for all she knew I could of been talking about a jeep. Your “law” has so many holes in it its laughable, and I’m not even law savvy
Jack-
What you are describing, the scenario about your “Cammaro” claim, unfortunately, would not get you arrested. Your concept of this law is based on ridiculous media hype. But c’mon, don’t lie to someone in order to get them in bed with you. How slimy can you get?
People have to behave responsibly, which means jumping in to the sack with someone because he claims to drive a fancy car does not warrant an arrest. Where’s the proof? Where’s the personal responsibility? A Maserati, yes. A Cammaro, no…….. Just kidding! ;-)!
Um no its not based on media hype, its based on what you are saying. That, by your definition of this bs “rape by fraud” (in my opinion is your own fault bc you made the choice to do that no body made you), is lying to gain sex. Which I honestly don’t think should be outlawed bc if you are only willing to have sex with someone just because they have money or a really nice car you have several problems you as a decent human being to address bc nobody likes anyone who would only so much as look at a person for their money or a fancy car or even a fancy house…..oh and before you make an attempt. No one in america or any free country can lie about not having a harmful disease and still have sex with the person you lied to bc if you are caught you are arrested…..its that simple
Jack,
What about “you won’t get arrested because you told her you drive a Camarro,” do you not understand?
It’s a stupid example that began with some ignorant reporter’s description using the speed of his Lamborghini to bed someone.
I never said anyone would be arrested for rape by fraud because they lied about the kind of car they drive. That’s absurd!
That’s OK Joyce. There are any number of women who Falsely accuse men of rape when they pull this sort of thing, and never suffer any consequences for it, assuming they are caught lying. Men have gone to jail for months, even years, and finally they were able to prove their innocence… which, you know.. isn’t how it is SUPPOSED to work.. but this is how it ACTUALLY works.
If a man is accused publicly of Rape, he is done. And not only does it happen, it happens a lot. Doing a meta analysis of all the available studies shows a figure of around 20% (from a low of 2% to a high of 90%, weighted for reliability, sample size and intent) .. thats ONE IN FIVE.. rapes is fraudelent.
So, I suggest if this ‘rape by fraud’ law is put in place (heck, even if it isnt), we put anotther law in place, including mandatory jail time, for anyone who accuses anyone of rape or sexual assault, but it later proves to be unfounded. Yes, you lie about rape or sexual assault, you go to jail for a year.
I don’t disagree with you Bob. False accusation is pretty heinous behavior and destroys lives. It’s nothing new. But it’s certainly no reason to fail to recognize a crime.
Joyce, dear. If you get this law enacted, some girl out there will totally use it to attack some guy who dumped them, claiming she only slept with him because she thought he had a Corvette, etc. You hand out loaded guns, you don’t know what they’ll be used for.
Corum-
We don’t fail to prosecute crimes because an innocent person could be convicted. We have judges, prosecutors, attorneys, grand juries and the media to prevent it from happening to the degree that is humanly possible. This law is no different. Equating the recognition of a crime to a “loaded gun” is simply hysteria.
Don’t you mean the female was slimy for wanting to have sex with this guy only because she thought he had money? Yup. I thought that’s what you meant. And wasn’t she going to take advantage of that? Who did you say was slimy again?
“What you are describing, the scenario about your “Cammaro” claim, unfortunately, would not get you arrested.”
unfortunately? so you’re saying that you believe a law should exist that WOULD get him arrested?
To be more honest, consent is ineffective when induced by certain forms of deception that are biased heavily towards men.
Men have been saddled with the role of pursuer when it comes to sex. Men have figured out that women go for men with money, power and/or fame. Guys need to have some game to get the sexual attention we all crave. So some guys need appear more important than they actually are to ever attract a woman, so that’s what they do. If the 7/11 clerk has to tell every woman he meets that he makes minimum wage under penalty of law, he may become an actual rapist at some point. This law would serve to punish poor and unattractive men while successful men continue to clean up sexually.
Women, of course, just need to pile on all the legally exempted physical enhancements they can afford then wait for a man to come to her. Women could lie but it wouldn’t help their attractiveness.
So, “gender neutral” or not, this law would punish men almost exclusively. Plus rape is a charge that, guilty or innocent, will follow a man for a long long time. The accusation is enough.
Boozer-
Thanks for giving us some insights into the misogynist perspective.
So, according to you, men have a right to lie, because how else will they get what they want. Of course, it all makes sense now!
And we should clearly only punish criminal, harmful behavior when it meets your biased criteria. By your reasoning, men have to sexually assault women so we should excuse them for doing so.
Brilliant! Thanks!
And in response to your subsequent comment which I removed, when you repeat the same argument over and over again, and continuously make unfounded assumptions about my motives and character, I see nothing to be gained by providing you with space. I heard you. The followers heard you. You made your point.
My comments were well thought out and relevant to the discussion. They were not repetive, each one was specific to the post I was replying to and I truly believe everything I said. I made sure to voice my opinion in a respectful way so there wouldn’t be any reason to delete them. So you invented a reason.
I took a good chunk of time last night to write replies on the subjects that you raise. It’s incredibly disrespectful to just delete hours of my time. You go out and voice controversial views to the public then delete opposing ideas? I thought you might be open to defending your position, but instead you called me a misogynist and deleted my thoughts from your blog.
If you are just going to delete posts you need to warn readers: OPPOSING VIEWS ARE NOT WELCOME HERE. So we don’t waste our time talking to a brick wall.
You know what, just delete them all, delete me from your website and delete me from your memory then go back to your quest.
Boozer-
I didn’t delete them all because you made some sincere attempts to have a discussion. I deleted what you said when you stopped doing so.
I don’t feel compelled to answer people who try to badger me or twist my words. I’ll give you a cogent response. I don’t feel compelled to argue the same thing ad nausium or defend myself when people misquote me.
If I didn’t welcome opposing view, I would never have agreed to the interview with Tom. You are making assumptions.
Fun fact:
Ferrari also makes bicycles. If he actually does own their bike he was in no way lying.
If the girl misunderstood and thought he had a car from the company and the car was the only reason for her to have sex with him, could he sue her for “rape due fraud”?
“Thanks for telling us how easily defiling women comes to you. Would you like to disclose your name so we all know who to stay away from?”
Why do you only attack him? she was attempting to use him (for his money) as much as he used her. If both parties are at fault, where is the crime. In addition, if she enjoyed the sex while having it – or at least it was consensual – then what’s the problem?
You’re going to create a world where we’ll have ‘rape by fraud’ laws, then men will finally succeed in getting ‘anti-golddigging’ laws passed, and everyone will be afraid to have sex for fear of being sued. People will have to carry around wavers for their partner to sign. “The undersigned agrees that they have concented to sexual intercourse regardless of the history, financial viabilility, or motives of their partner of [date here]”
Just imagine, their lips meet, hands tracing the outlines of each others body. As clothes are removed and the passion heats up, he whispers those, now common sweet-nothings in her ear, ‘darling, are you prepared to signed a waiver?’
A world where any of us would want to live?
What about don’t jump into bed with a stranger do you not understand? No law can protect you from your failure to take reasonable measures to protect yourself.
This law is to prosecute con artists who go beyond the reasonable measures that protect people in order to induce sex.
I agree, but this is the sticking point. We seem to differ on our opinion of how much personal responsibility we should have – my own view is that we carry at least some personal responsibility for everything that happens to us (and please don’t make the mistake of thinking I’ve never had anyone attempt to scam me). I think, if we’re honest, we know that this law will not be isolated to those relatively few examples.
And, if we’re honest, we both know that this is a law that would not apply equally to all genders. Consider that many, if not most, states have a similar rape law to England’s, which states:
1-(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
You’ll note the extreme gender bias in the wording of this law.
So just where is the equivalent law that protects men from gold-diggers? You know, the fraudulent beautiful women who marry them and then divorce shortly after to get a nice big cut of their wealth. This is so common now, that London, UK is known as the celebrity divorce capital of the world on account of how easy it is for the women to get a nice big settlement. All they have to do is provide some minimal evidence of a tie to the UK and *bingo* pay-day, 50% of his earnings.
Edwin-
Many states use the term “penetrate.” In those states, the law, indeed seems biased. Those states should modify the language to “an act of penetration” which would include both women and men.
I’m not arguing with you that laws in the past haven’t been sexist. They are rife with other flaws as well. I can only hope that in “sexual assault by fraud” laws, that the language that is used is gender neutral.
Everyone has “personal responsibility” when a prosecutor pursues criminal charges. Sexual assault by fraud is not different. In the state of NJ, the term, “as a reasonable person” is used to determine whether the behavior of the offender did or did not cross the line. The same benchmark they use in all criminal laws will be used in #3908 as well.
Way to teach that gold digging bitch… hahaha
Way to show your ignorance!
Thank you so much for giving a name to what I myself, as well as dozens of other women have experienced while having dated an employee of a major Airline carrier. Over the last year, I have met and communicated frequently with more than 1/2 dozen women my “fiancé” was also intimately involved with. Each of us had additional names of previous girlfriends and can only speculate just how many women have been seduced and heartbroken over the last 2 decades. This group of women and I have established a wonderful connection of support and friendship through conveying the “same” story over and over, which is difficult for friends and family that have not been so physically or emotionally violated. Because many of these women also work for the same Airline carrier, they have remained “silent” out of fear of retribution and the shear humiliation of being manipulated into such a gut wrenching relationship…we ALL believed we were “exclusive”, but have discovered additional women as this employee flies internationally. We now all recognize that we were involved with a pathological, narcisstic sociopath…but it is still a very painful discovery. And yes, this individual has Genital Herpes which he did not disclose to the majority of these women while enjoying unprotected sexual activity. Personally, I feel as if I’ve slept with the entire United Nations and as a Catholic, I have a whole set of compromised values as I assisted this individual in pursuit of Annulment of his previous marriage in order to marry in our mutual Faith.
Fortunately, I am not employed by this Airline and am able to be the “voice” for many. Thank you for giving our experience a “name” that validates what we all feel has been criminal, but had no awareness of as potentially prosecutable under the law. As my circle of “ex’s” is wide and across the U.S., I am inspired that at least one of our states of residence will pause and reflect upon supporting adoption of such laws that prohibit this activity, particularly in an electronic age of on-line dating. Blessings to all that have survived…
Welcome Robin-
I’m so sorry to hear of the misfortune you and the other women encountered. His failure to disclose his medical condition is truly abhorrent behavior.
Would you or any of the women who were harmed be interested in joining the 50 Brave Women campaign and champion the introduction of laws to prevent rape by fraud in your state?
It’s very important for society to see the scope of the problem. Sexual predators work in a serial fashion and harm many people. So although they make up a small corner of the population, the range of their harm is broad.
I’m one of the women Robin spoke of and I would be more then happy to join. I am just happy to know this has a name! If I can help someone else recognize and reject this behavior, I’m in 100%! Janet
Hi Janet-
Could you please complete the short form you’ll find on the 50 Brave Women page? It comes directly to my email box and is not distributed publicly. If you’re not familiar with the names of the Legislators in your area at the moment, it’s not a problem. Just fill in the information that you can.
I’m sorry to hear of your ordeal. I hope we can get some justice for you and help raise awareness together.
Sincerely,
Joyce
Joyce,
I work with the person who did this to Robin, myself, and many other women! I was the one that found out about his whole unbelievable secret of spreading a STD and extorting money from unsuspecting women! I contacted the many women, therefore he turned me into work for harassment and I have been put on probation for two years and he walks away with no consequences! Yes I hope I can find some justice! My justice was just finding out about all the other women and the new women he adds to his list to warn them, but that is why am in trouble with my employer! My heart breaks for the new women I know about that I can’t contact!
Best,
Janet
Janet-
Please let me know the states in which he’s transmitted STDs. It may be a crime in some of them. I’ve checked your state, and unfortunately, there is no specific law on this in your jurisdiction. But I understand you and Robin are in touch with a number of the women who have been defrauded by him. This may be the ticket that puts an end to his cruelty.
Also, even without a current rape by fraud law, some states may prosecute him for defrauding his victims of money. I need more information in order to give you a better assessment. You can post that info on the 50 Brave Women form or on the home page. Both those forms come directly to my mailbox. They’re not public.
Joyce
Joyce,
The person lives in NYC! Yes there is a law which would put him in jail for one year and $1000 fine.
Janet
In what states did he engage in sex with the women?
We work for a major airline and fly international. So at the time I found out about his secret he had women in Italy St. Maarten North Carolina New York Connecticut Massachusetts New Mexico Vancouver Canada, and let me remind you those are just the ones that I knew of, I’m sure there are many more now!
In New Mexico, he could be charged with battery. In Massachusetts, assault. In NY, reckless endangerment, a misdemeanor with a penalty of $1,000 and a one year prison sentence. Connecticut, assault and reckless endangerment, North Carolina, assault. If he’s convicted of more than one count, his penalty could increase.
Do you know the women involved and what has prevented them from bringing charges?
Joyce
The problem is some of us work for the same company. And we don’t want to be fired. Then some just want to move on. And believe it or not some are still standing by their man! I have befriended a few but we are scared because we don’t want to lose our job because of a slime ball like him.
I can only speak for myself but I think these other women would file charges if they knew they would not lose their job. He filed an harassment charge against me at work and I have been put on probation for 2 years. And nothing happened to him. Not fair at all. In my case this was a personal situation and should have never been brought to our company!
So, you slept with him, but couldn’t tell that he had genital herpes or at least something that looked like it?
Also, can you prove he didn’t have feelings for you (all of you?) at least in so much as he was capable of? What I’m saying is, just because he’s polygamous or polyamorous, doesn’t make him fraudulent.
“Blessings to all that have survived…”
I don’t mean to belittle anyone’s feelings but, seriously? A partner allegedly lied to you and you act as if you’ve survived the holocaust. I thought my seven-year old was a drama queen.
Edwin-
By mocking Robin’s comment about “blessings to all who survived” you’re simply showing how little emotional empathy you have. You don’t relate to the pain others feel when they are raped. You’re not unusual. If it were more understood, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
There are two kinds of people in the world…. those with emotional empathy and those without it.
When people don’t have emotional empathy, they don’t develop a conscience. They do ugly things to other folks without remorse. Not every psychopath is a ghoul. Some are just nasty folks who are insensitive. For whatever reason, and it could be developmental, they didn’t become ghouls even though their brains are wired to have little reaction to another person’s pain.
That seems like you.
Edwin apologised for belittling peoples feelings but felt he had to point out the not-uncommon trope of “my partner was cheating on me!” was being discussed in holocaust-type language (eg/Survivors etc), his point being that this has happened to most people (men and women).
Joyce, in response, called him a Psychopath. Wow.
I read all the posts about this guy and wasn’t going to reply but seriously? Are you all from the 60s? Dude is an Airline Pilot, flies a route between 7 cities/countries each week. Meets an Air Hostess every tuesday night in Singapore. they hook up. It never occurs to her that to him, she might just be “tuesday”. But she won’t date the Janitor at the airport. Or the guy who runs the newspaper stall. She has an Airplane Pilot as a boyfriend! yay! She’s not shallow at all! Is the guy a douchebag? yes! Is he a serial rapist? Get a grip. But yes all these women will feel hurt and upset and angry, and quite rightly, but they weren’t raped.
No matter how “shallow” a person is, no matter how gullible a person is, NO ONE is entitled to exploit them by sexually assaulting them. People are entitled to their preferences. A person who lies to have sex disrespects the victim’s personal preference and self determination over their body.
If you don’t fit into their personal preference, either change or find someone who values you the way you are. Don’t defraud them.
I am one of the women Robin is speaking of and this is a con man. He told all of us,we were in a committed relationship there was no one else! He even went as far as to produce a medical report stating he had no STDs! He builds up your trust and then start borrowing your credit card and running up large amounts on your credit card! This was somebody you trusted you ask all the right questions he gave you all the right answers until the one day I found out about his con!
Janet-
I’m so sorry to hear of your misfortune and wish you strength in dealing with it.
Your story qualifies as an obvious con. I’m constantly told various scenarios that people invent to deter the creation of sexual assault by fraud law. But yours is a case in which you were conned by actual, erroneous, documented proof, and this case would warrant a charge if the law existed in your state.
Have you checked on the laws in your jurisdiction pertaining to passing along STDs? States differ, but yours may be one that would prosecute. If you let me know where you are, I can check for you.
All the best-
Joyce
I’m in MA. What do I do first to start a legal action?
Janet-
I’m sorry to inform you that MA has no laws on passing along STDs. There has; however, been a case in which knowingly passing along HIV resulted in an attempted murder conviction. And if the offender raped a child, they would be convicted of a higher level crime than the rape alone.
You may; however, attempt to convince your police or local Prosecutor of filing an “assault” charge. Particularly because he specifically showed you documentation to prove otherwise, there is no question of his intent to defraud you and inflict harm.
Let me know the states in which the other victims were similarly harmed and I’ll see if there’s a more accommodating penal code under which he could be criminally charged.
Also, if you speak to an attorney, they could possibly bring this case as a tort (civil action,) and attempt to recover damages for you.
Let me know whatever you do.
Wishing you all the best!
Joyce
Thank You for the info. But I think you gave me that information before. He lives in NY, its $1000 fine and 1 year in jail. But have you made any connections with lawyers willing to work pro bono on this topic? I can fill in NY because that is where this man lives. Other states are NC, CA, and VA. There are others but due to almost being fired from my job, due this person filing a harassment charge against me for contacting these women, I was not able to continue contacting the women I know he has taken advantage of, either sexual or financially.
I have been put on probation for 1 year due to his complaint! So I will not jeopardize my job because of him. But I still see and work with him!
Janet
Janet-
Spreading STDs is a crime in NY. It’s a violation of N.Y. Pub. Health Law § 2307 to knowingly transmit an STD. There’s no specific list of STDs that qualify, but commonly accepted STDs are human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the virus that causes acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS), herpes, gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia, hepatitis, and other contagious diseases that are spread through sexual contact.
To pursue a charge against the offender, you should contact the police. You don’t need an attorney in order to do so. Make sure you read the law and cite the law to the police when you file your complaint.
If the STD he passed along is life threatening, like HIV or syphilis, the case becomes a felony offense and he’d go on the sexual offender list. Let me know if that’s the case.
Joyce
I am doing a report on “rape by deception” stating my opinion on it and being able to state the other side. I personally find this website extremely helpful. Ive been having trouble finding websites that state any more than an example of rape by fraud or just stating what it is. I found your descriptions and reasonings and explanations really helped me to understand this topic and will be a big part of my essay.
Ryan-
I’m glad you found it helpful and would love to see your report when you’re through. It could even be a new edition to the articles and commentary page.
Joyce
Why should it be OK to have appearance enhancements (which women typically do) but not income enhancements (which typically men might do, but not nearly as much as women use makeup, pushup bras, high heels, etc. etc.) It just doesn’t seem fair.
What about perfume, is that OK?
Laura-
I’m having a little trouble following your question, but I’ll answer what I believe to be what you’re asking… Using appearance enhancements will not be prosecuted by either males or females.
Appearance enhancements impact what people see. Either a person is attracted to what they see, or not. The high heels, the padded bra, the Spanx, etc., come off before you have sex. And even if they don’t, what you are visually drawn to is not the same as being lied to. When someone masterminds a hoax that defies reasonable discovery, they are embroiling you in rape by fraud.
I love the concept that people have to weigh the merit of a law by whether it applies to more males or females. Rape by fraud is a crime whether it happens to a man or a woman. If more men owned cars than women, which is likely to be the cse, but I’m not taking a survey on the matter, would we suggest not prosecuting for car theft because more men would benefit from the law?
This proposed legislation probably will never be written into law. http://www.infowars.com/lie-before-sex-youre-a-rapist/ These words are what the majority of people will think. You are wasting your time. Cry a river. Poor you. We have all had our hearts broken. We have all been lied to. Just get up and live on. I feel sorry for such bitter woman but… thats all you want anyway, to be coddled.
Lying is not a crime. Lying to sexually penetrate someone is. It is already the law in several states because it’s a crime. Society needs to know.
What if they only have oral sex?
How accurate must the stated income be, down to last cent $84537,38? or can we round it to 84K? or “around 80K”? or “between 50K and 100K”? What if the income is variable? What about the title is not accurate or misleading, like the “managerial position” has a team of only 1?
Woman: Hey, how much do you earn? As accurate as possible please. Please state your name and speak slowly to the microphone, so I can prove it later.
Man: Why? Are you interested in my money?
Woman: I just want to find out if you’re raping me.
Man: Have a nice day. Bye bye.
Stupidest idea I’ve read in years, almost as bad as “let’s criminalize criticizing feminism”.
FTC-
You have absolutely no concept of SexFraud.
Hey, Anonymous! There are no guarantees that any action taken toward reform/increased awareness will have a sweeping, positive impact on communities. There is also no guarantee that it won’t have a positive impact. However, there is a guarantee of stagnation, increased oppression, fraud and other crimes if we choose not to take action, remian indifferent and succumb to the status quo of ignorance and learned helplessness. With that said, regardless of what the majority of people think today, that could change tomorrow. Who knows, maybe one day even you will stop minimizing, shaming and defaming people. Who knows. I’ve witnessed crazier miracles. Good luck to you!! 🙂
Amen Paula! This comment comes from a reader as a result of this broadcast. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c0f_1426011040 Please feel free to chime in!!
The trouble with trying to inflate minor crimes is it undermines major crimes. For example, in NYC once the mayor declared a mandatrory death penalty for selling drugs to kids. Sounds good, right? Protect the kids. Until you realise: dealer selling to kid in alley. Cops show up. Best defence; kill the kid, get less penalty. What happens if lying to women becomes “rape” and this filters down to the lowlifes who have nothing honest to impress with, and no ethics or morality if its easier to go rape someone than it is to try to chat up some chick in a bar, but if both carry the same penalty? Think about it.
“what you are visually drawn to is not the same as being lied to.”
Except, it is for men, who choose partners initially on the basis of appearance, while women chose more commonly on ‘security’, which is generally income, strength or confidence.
Come to think of it, these things can also be faked by appearance in the case of women too. Imagine, I drive up to a club in a hot ferrari, wearing a nice suit. I pick up a woman who is clearly attracted by my affluent wealth. We have sex at her place, then I tell her I have to go because I need to return the car and the suit by 9am. I never ‘told’ her I was rich, I only suggested it by appearance. Can’t prosecute this, can you?
Secondly, we are judging on the basis of who it applies to, because the law is clearly being set up, and will mostly be use, by women. Time and time again, if men get screwed over by their partner, they just suck it up and move on. But it seems that many women simply don’t want to accept that they made an error in judgement.
Thirdly, rape is legally impossible for a woman to commit in the US (by definition, it requires inserting a penis), so how could a woman legally commit ‘rape by fraud’?
Forthly, the case described above in the numerous e-mail exchanges does not need a ‘rape by fraud’ law because there would already appear to be a ‘fraud’ case – assuming he actually said anything that misled her (that wasn’t clear from her recounting of the story), and if it’s true. The — oh yeah, and he had genital herpes — seems a bit suspicious to me, consider: (1) she was arranging a marriage to him, but didn’t worry about the herpes until after he left? (2) why would he need an annulment, he clearly wasn’t worried about pretending to marry many different women? I’m not saying the story isn’t true, just suggesting there appear to be a few holes in it. Oh yeah, and where’s the fraud, appart from not mentioning the herpes?
Rape is a physical act, not an emotional attachment. When you commit an act of sexual penetration induced by a hoax, that is sexual assault by fraud.
Every sexually active person has a responsibility to protect them self. Only in cases where the REASONABLE measures employed by the victim did not protect them because of the intended violation of the offender, would the act be prosecutorial. In the case of appearance enhancements such as make-up or push up bras, it would be reasonable to expect that if it were important to the person, they would have them removed BEFORE engaging in sex.
Once again to the All the Mentally challenged supporting this kind of legislation, Die a painful slow and agonizing Death
I can keep removing this, but I thought, instead, it’s worth letting readers see the hideous mentality of people who oppose this law. Only someone who is deeply disordered could post such a comment. By the way, I have your IP address.
Others have responded much better than myself (including you!)…but it seems ultimately, the less attention and coddling paid to these asswipes, the less response they get, it is they that they are the ones who will die a slow,k painful and agonizing death. That person’s comments are just so ridiculous, I can’t even take them seriously. But good for you not to be phased by them.
Seems you are probably one of the conartists who lie about your relationship status, disease status, monetary status, or child status. I believe rapists deserve an agonizing sentence in PRISON with a rape charge nailed against them. That way they can FEEL WHAT WE FELT WITHOUT OUR CONSENT.
Agreed. Rapists deserve an agonising sentence in prison. That dude you met who didn’t tell you about his ex-wife or kid when you met and shagged in the club – that ain’t one of them.
And we should really be impressed with the astute reasonableness of your behavior and thought process. Thanks for giving us a clear glimpse of how disturbed the naysayers mind works.
I think you’re missing the whole issue. It’s not about appearance enhancements – which both men and women do – or about perfumes or after shave. Hopefully, most people appreciate good personal hygiene in either sex. It’s about intentionally frauding someone and causing damage to another person.
Well said Allyson!
Thank you.
Joyce
So, if a woman and a man have sex and the woman says she is taking birth control but is not and gets pregnant, Is she a criminal under this proposed legislation?
The gender flip of the man who says he doesn’t need a condom because he’s sterile, when he’s not. The question becomes “Was your expectation a reasonable one?” Did you just hop into the sack with her with no prior knowledge of her conduct, or did you have good reason to believe what she said? No case of sexual assault by fraud can be prosecuted without significant proof and responsible behavior on the part of the victim.
Although your comment warrants the validity of her morals, birth control is your responsibility AND hers, especially if you know that you don’t want children. I wouldn’t be so inclined to call this rape by deception. This is deceiving and unscrupulous. BUT if she told you that she had a hysterectomy and becomes pregnant, then you were deceived and frauded, and I would press charges.
If I wasn’t provided the awareness that he has children for years, while I have none & he knows I want them – then find out he has children – I was frauded
If I was told that we are in a monogamous relationship over and over again, and there are NO signs of cheating, because he cheats while Im alseep, and one day I contract herpes or HIV, I was frauded.
If he states that he has NO diseases walking in and I contract HIV, he has imposed attempted manslaughter charges onto himself. I was frauded.
There is a line between lying and conning. When you are INTENTIONALLY SELLING A DIFFERENT PACKAGE is ENTIRELY different than lying about Birth Control. you KNOW the chance of pregnancy is there….You WOULDNT KNOW HIV chances are there for as long as you are with a serial cheater who HIDES his cheating by lying over everything. If he says he works nights so that he can sleep with her, and then tells her that his day job is XYZ but really just jumps from woman to woman, using their ‘income’ to support the other, it is fraud.
Maybe you aren’t a con, and maybe you are – I wouldnt know. But I know how this works. This is a profession for them, fraud. Pimping prostitutes is more honest than having sex with a woman using deceit and alternate personas. If I say my name is Mary, then you have to believe it right? Just like you had to believe she was on BC. Some people are so sick and twisted, so abusive and vile of another human’s body, that laws like this are NEEDED. A moral person wouldn’t care about this type of law, now would they?
Id imagine this would simply make cheaters think twice about cheating.
Morally sound people wouldn’t flinch over a law like this. IMMORAL PEOPLE?? They’re looking for loopholes before the law even plays out.
Susan you are so on target. Great post!!!
🙂 Thanks Ive been down this road a couple of times 🙂
Morally sound people realize we already have fraud laws that cover these cases and have no reason to tie ‘rape’ into it.
Incorrect. “Fraud” laws don’t cover it. Fraud is a tool that is used in various crimes. If you steal through the use of fraud, it’s “theft by fraud.” If you obtain a “wildlife Card” in Florida by the use of fruad, it’s “securing a Wildlife Card by Fraud.” If you obtain a driver’s license in NJ by the use of “false personation,” exactly the same type of fraud in rape by fraud, it’s “Obtaining a Driver’s License by Fraud.”
If morally sound people realized there were fraud laws for being lied to and conned into having sex and unique relationships on a (romantic)level, then I’m sure there would be millions of sex fraud cases as we speak. I would have filed one against my ex-husband – a Clinger Psychopath. He was not morally sound. And I knew him for near 20 years. So if you understood a psychopathic/sociopathic/narcissistic mind, you would then know that they do not possess the same moral or empathetic structure that the morally sound, possess….they will lie and steal and cheat, with women and men – without your knowledge…
it take a morally sound person to know that they are harming another, whether financially, emotionally, or sexually by using deceit
And unfortuntely the immorally sound are able to pass polygraphs.
There are no laws for sexual assault by deceit. If i was lucky enough to contract AIDS through his deceit, we can bypass this one and go for a simple attempted manslaughter….but let’s not try to infect a population dut to someone else’s deviant ways, eh? Opinion only, of course
There are laws in many states that deal with sexual assault by deceit. And Alabama and Tennessee have more comprehensive laws to cover this crime. Criminal code should be standardized and universal so that society understands what’s at stake when you violate a person’s sexual sanctity by conning them into a decision about their body that they otherwise would not have made. Once people understand the behavior and the consequences, victimization will diminish and people will be safer.
Rape by fraud is recognized in many countries. There are recent convictions for rape by fraud in Australia, and cases currently pending in Bangladesh.
If rape by fraud laws existed in your jurisdiction, and you were defrauded into sex by the offender hiding an infectious disease, they would have conducted rape by fraud.
Far too many people are sexually defiled and devastated by con artists. It’s become commonplace in society. Nothing changes without enlightenment, and laws.
Yes, I understand the nature of psychopathy relatively well. I also understand that it’s estimated that upwards of 30% of the population is considered to have some form of psychopathy (my own opinion is that much of the extreme left, the militant SJWs, should be tested for this). It’s thought a certain degree of psychopathy is necessary for effective leadership, however (vis-a-vis the classic Trolley Problem in psychology).
However, what I fail to understand is equating ‘being lied to’ to ‘fraud’. If we go down this road, everyone will have some law suit against everyone else.
My own suspicions, which you will doubtfully get very upset by, is that you are incredibly upset at yourself for allowing him to fool/manipulate/use you for so long, and now that it’s come to something like AIDS, you want restribution. Since sex is a woman’s best weapon in a court of law, it’s the easiest thing to go after. Regardless of the fact that apparently, you were with him 20 years!
How could any court give a conviction under such circumstance even if there was a rape fraud law? People change a lot in 20 years so there’s no guarentee that he was a fraud when he met you, nor that he was a ‘fraud’ at the end of the 20 years. In fact, I’m not entirely sure why you brought up this example. I can’t believe you would be trying to argue that he’s committed ‘fraud’ just because he may have been with other women/men.
I hope you realize that (a) psychopath does not necessarily equal fraud, (b) polyamorous does not equal fraud, (c) adultery does not equal fraud.
Also, if we equate passing AIDS to manslaughter, then I can’t wait for the first class-action law suit brought on behalf of Africans against the Catholic Church.
P.S. anyone can pass a polygraph test if you know how they work
Being lied to in order to deprive you of something is “fraud.” That’s the definition…. you should look it up.
Everyone who is manipulated by a scam faults themselves for having been manipulated. That’s why the crime of fraud is so devastating to people. You doubt yourself, and blame yourself. It takes years of therapy to get over it. Fraud is insidious. According to Socrates, it’s even more devastating than being attacked violently.
If you’d read my book, you would know that the man was a total fraud when we met. Everything he told me about himself was a lie. And the ability to disengage from a scammer is impeded by one’s own brain chemistry. People need to understand the mechanics, not only of the psychopath’s malfunctioning brain, but also of the infrastructure of the brain of the victim. Apparently, you simply don’t.
And, thank God, it wasn’t 20 years, although, since a child came from this horrific circumstance, it’s affected me for a lifetime. Trying to raise a child with a psychopath for a father is extraordinarily difficult. They lie, cheat, steal and do everything possible to undermine you as a parent. They abandon their children. The impact is horrific.
“I hope you realize that (a) psychopath does not necessarily equal fraud”
That would be incorrect. Psychopaths are pathological liars, and therefore, they are absolute frauds. Being pathological means they are posing to be someone they are not. Therefore, if you are pretending to be something that you are not, then you are a fraud
“(b) polyamorous does not equal fraud”
No, it does not equal fraud. However, secretly hiding affairs does not make you consensually polyamorous. It makes you a victim of a potentially deadly disease. Plus, if you want to be polyamorous, you would make that known. No? Or would you rather call that ‘protecting your own incessant need for multiple sex partners, without receiving consent? Sounds pretty deviant, if one and not the other partner “believes” in something, yet doesn’t share their ‘need to please them all.
“(c) adultery does not equal fraud.”
If you are lied to for years, while sharing your spouses bank account, and lying about where the money goes. It’s stealing, and it’s fraud. It is your money if you are a married couple. Not a married man who has to lie about his entire life in order to take money from a woman. That’s tragic and a sorry pathetic, and thieving soul. Then again, we’ve all been raised differently – so maybe in some families, lying about your whereabouts is common….but it’s also dysfunctional…according to society in general…not just your 2%
“Also, if we equate passing AIDS to manslaughter, then I can’t wait for the first class-action law suit brought on behalf of Africans against the Catholic Church.”
Oh. Well, that’s another subject, but since people DO sue and WIN in cases for attemtped murder when a partner passes AIDS onto partners, then…Let me know when that movement begins, and we’ll fight that fight too…Then again, if you don’t believe in rape by deception, Ill assume you also dont believe the Catholic church should be questioned about AIDS.
“P.S. anyone can pass a polygraph test if you know how they work”
Not if they have a conscience, and know the difference between right and wrong…Amoral people know as well as moral ones, do…I would never pass a polygraph, because people who wont intentionally harm another person in order to gain or benefit because I’m only smart enough to steal, then I’d get nervous if a police officer asked if I stabbed someone, and I replied “NO”…My conscience would never allow me to remain calm. That is the difference between people like me, who think of people vs people like….those who understand the rapist mentality…’She was too stupid to see through it’….then again, I believe trust is something that people that you can relate to, will always rely on, in order to attain a means to an end, because those types can’t really foster a positive and fruitful lifestyle without climbing over people – stealing – molesting – and touching children – it’s just who they are, just as much as I am just who I am….
Serial killers are just who they are, and con artists are themselves too…but as an enlightened society, I would think to believe labels aren’t just given. They are studied. Just how you ‘gather an opinion’ based off of my comments, and think it was my fault. I gather if you are on this site to fault a woman for trusting, chances are…you have your own challenges to contend with. In any event, we all form opinions. And I believe you and I probably fit into each respective label, quite nicely. Thank you for that. I enjoy talking to people with this mindset. It helps my own research. Thank you again for your informed commentary. Always good to have healthy conversation to understand how real this sickness is.
Susan-
Per your usual, well done!
I think the sickness lies in the concept that sex is a commodity to many people. They simply don’t get that a person lives inside the body they are violating. They fail to see the connection between a person’s sexual organs and their spirit…. and it’s probably because they don’t feel that connection themselves.
There’s a reason why assaulting sexual organs is treated differently than assaulting an arm or a leg under the law. Many people don’t grasp the difference. They don’t see an invasion of your sex organs as an invasion of your soul.
Yes Joyce. Since I equate the ‘rapist mentality’ to a more primate mentality, an animalistic one, if you will – it is absolutely rooted in sex the act vs sex the intimate bond between two people. Rule of thumb for any person with a conscience is: If I have to lie to get it, then it’s probably wrong. If I feel nothing sexually when Im with this person, but their bank account looks good, so Ill say “I love you” because women are stupid – then it is abuse by deceit. Not so sure how people dont get how simple this is….Thank you Joyce, I enjoy your page and commentaries so very much <3
And women do it ten times more than men do! The insanity of this is reprehensible and everyone here understands that. WHY DO YOU HATE MEN SO MUCH THAT YOU WOULD ACTUALLY ATTEMPT TO CREATE A LAW to put as many of them in jail as you possibly can? I honestly see this as crazy insanity!
Do you not understand that the law already exists in several enlightened states and in many countries.
Mike-
If what you’re saying is true, why aren’t you jumping up and down to get this law passed? One would think you’d want to prevent people from being raped whether they are male or female. You are showing you are against this law because you think it will only protect women when laws are not written in a gender specific fashion.
“Mike-
If what you’re saying is true, why aren’t you jumping up and down to get this law passed? One would think you’d want to prevent people from being raped whether they are male or female. You are showing you are against this law because you think it will only protect women when laws are not written in a gender specific fashion.”
Because, yet again, only women would use, or be able benefit, from this law. (1) Men simply take more personal responsibility for their failures. (2) In addition, the courts and society don’t accept the same level of whining from men, even when justified. Consider the case, in New York I believe, where a cab drive was accused of attempted rape by three women. He was cleared after showing video proof from a hidden camera in his cab that documented the womens’ false accusations. He tried to counter sue them but, even with the video proof, the police refused to let him!
And again, would like to know how a man could use a ‘rape by fraud’ law against a woman, when women cannot legally commit rape in the US, by definition.
Edwin-
States differ on rape laws. While some states may not identify rape against a man, others do.
The issues surrounding rape are huge, for both men and women. There is no standardized doctrine on the crime. And you are correct, when a man is raped, he should have due recourse as a woman. No one here is arguing that point with you.
Agreed, some men are more stoic than others. The same is true of women. But laws should exist for society, whether the person chooses to avail them self of the law or not. There is always blame and shame hurled at victims on either side of the gender aisle. Welcome to our world!
Thank you.
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I have read your blog several times. Are you saying that women who are lied to in order for men to have sex with them have a criminal case?That they should be able to pursue charges against the “perpetrator” ?I think many car salesman would fall into the same category. Perhaps advertising firms are guilty of misleading consumers on a daily basis. I have concluded that many people are volunteers not victims .It pays to read the fine print and do your research before committing to or consenting to anything. Can you clarify what you are talking about ? Many men are lied to everyday. How many have heard ” I can’t get pregnant” ? Then comes the news they are going to be a dad. They should have abstained or used protection. I propose that abstaining may be more viable advise. Please reply .
Thank you , Tom
When you are defrauded regarding a car sale, you have a legal remedy. While you have a monetary loss, no one invaded your sexual organs based on false pretenses by misrepresenting a car.
False advertising can also lead to fraud charges.
When you use fraud as a tool to sexually violate a person, you are not seducing them, you’re sexually assaulting them.
If they agree to it, for whatever reason appart from being physically threatened, they have consented and it’s not assault or rape. In addition, honestly, if the sex was consentual and, especially if it was enjoyable, then what has the woman lost? It’s not like a piece of her vagina disappears each time she has sex. It’s a sad world you’re trying to create where no one has any responsibilty for their choices (even the bad ones).
OK…. so you’ve just revealed that all sex is to you is warm flesh and body fluids. If that was all it meant to the mainstream of society, rape would simply be “assault.”
Rape is rape because it violates the person’s most intimate core. Obviously, you don’t have one, and you don’t relate to other folks having one either.
People do not “agree” to things they’re deceived about. That’s a ridiculous misconception on your part. If inducing a decision by deceit were legal, we would have no criminal code for fraud crimes, and in fact, fraud is one of the largest areas of crime covered in penal code. Lie to take a person’s assets, go to jail. Lie to induce sex…. no problem. Not!
Ms. Short has designed this to be aimed specifically at men even though she tries to say it is gender neutral. If I were and idiot, I would still not believe her.
I am absolutely not to blame for the fact that rape happens to far more women than men. But the law is definitely gender neutral. And, by the way, the law currently exists in states where the Legislators who passed it were predominately male.
I do not know if rape happens more often to Women than to Men, But what difference does that make? If rape happened to one man, that one man should have the same legal recourse as if it happened to every man.
Of course he should!
“I am absolutely not to blame for the fact that rape happens to far more women than men. ”
Only if you completely dismiss prison rape and statutory rape in youth facilities. If you include both, women become minority of rape cases.
Don’t try to convince me about numbers without statistics.
“Don’t try to convince me about numbers without statistics.”
Try these on, then:
all of these references can be found, linked to original source, in the wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender
Brief summary: while, among the general public, women appear 3 times more likely to be raped by survey (NWAV survey – 0.1% of men raped in previous year, 0.3% of women), only 1 in 7 female rapes is reported, while only 1 in 10 male rapes are reported (estimated). In addition, 5% of men report being forced to penetrate a partner –> and don’t you dare even think ‘boo hoo, poor them’, mental coercion is just as serious as physical coercion.
Furthermore, the Human Rights Watch estimates that 100,000-140,000 violent rapes occur in prisons annually, compared to an estimated 90,000 violent rapes of women, in society, over the same period.
Edwin-
So you just said, “mental coercion is just as serious as physical coercion.” Thanks for making my point so clearly!
From a legal standpoint, however, the term “coercion” means something other than what you intended. It means the threat of harm (and in some states, it also means concealment.) I believe what you’re actually trying to say is mental persuasion is just as harmful as physical persuasion. Mental persuasion includes deceit. Don’t think so? Ask Socrates. He did!
Mike-
Because you’re not an idiot, just an outright bigot!