JOYCE M. SHORT- Founder & CEO of the Consent Awareness Network CAN
Joyce Short survived three distinct types of sexual assault – all three covered by Model Penal Code – by force, by duress, and by deception. Her struggle to recover led her to research what actually constitutes rape and sexual assault across the US and around the world. She discovered that no state or jurisdiction actually includes a definition for the noun, consent, in their laws.
Ms. Short is the author of Your Consent – The Key to Conquering Sexual Assault and a TEDx Talk Presenter. She launched her efforts to conquer sexual assault by fighting for desperately needed laws on “consent.”
In 2009, she founded the Consent Awareness Network (CAN) to create the public’s demand for change and to reach out to legislators to enact transformational laws. CAN’s efforts are supported by survivors of high profile cases like Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, NXIVM, and more.
CAN is responsible for two bills in New York State to define consent as freely given, knowledgeable and informed agreement by a person with the capacity to reason. CAN has also succeeded in introducing an amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act in the US.
Ms. Short was honored as a “Woman of Distinction by the NY State Assembly. She’s been featured in Nightline, BuzzFeed, Inside Edition, The New York Times, CBS News, WPIX, Fox News, and more.
A new study on rape by fraud, unfortunately limited to young people. https://www.facebook.com/GeneticPsycho/posts/2159658607419169
I would love to share my story with you. I have the drive to want to help with what your doing. 16 years worth of rape by deception. Picking of the pieces now…..piece by piece.
My heart goes out to you! Sincerely! And I’d be happy to post your story! You can send it to me at stopromancescams@yahoo.com. And we’ll see what we can do to motivate legislators in your state.
We need more inghists like this in this thread.
That’s a shrewd answer to a tricky quisteon
Hello!
My name is Lauren Buschlen. I am currently a freshman, and in my WRA 101 class, we are doing an inquiry-based essay. My essay is on rape by deception, and we need to have an interview with a credible source to cite for our essay resources. I was wondering if there was any way I could be connected to someone that has experienced rape by deception that is open to talk about their experience, or someone that is knowledgeable about the topic, or has worked with victims. I would preferably like to do the interview in person, however am willing to work around the person’s schedule if the interview needs to be conducted via phone or email. Please let me know if there is any help or any other directions you could point me in.
Thank you for your time!
Hi Lauren-
I can put you in touch with a number of people who fit your request. I’m glad to hear you are focusing on this topic. Please contact me off-line at StopRomanceScams@yahoo.com.
Joyce
Looking to get in touch with you for an interview for CBC Radio in Vancouver, Canada. Please send me an e-mail if you are interested.
Can you explain why the ‘victims’ don’t have a responsibility to check the facts for themselves before giving it up? We’re not talking about force or coercion here. In fact, there’s nothing I can see that would deprive them of the right to withold consent.
My mama always told me that if I’m not sure about somebody, I shouldn’t have sex with them.
Am I no longer responsible for the choices that result in who I sleep with, if I am given a good story beforehand?
Are you suggesting we hand over the responsibility of those choices to my sexual partners? Wouldn’t that set an unusual legal precedent?
For you to think that scammers don’t go to great lengths to fool even the most circumspect victims is incorrect. This law will not protect people who irresponsibly jump into the sack with someone.
Keep in mind that a person who lies to obtain sex is deliberately attempting to deprive the victim of self determination by their treachery. And when they do so in a provable way, such as false personation on their e-dating profile, the case against them can be proven in a court of law.
You simply don’t comprehend the depths people go to to hoodwink others into sex. And when they do…. when they forge IDs, and create false backgrounds, when they exceed the level of checking that would be expected of a “reasonable” person, they would be held accountable under the catfish law. And that is specifically how the law is written if you’d take the time to read it.
Still, I can’t see anything that removes the victim’s right to withold consent.
Who has sex with somebody because of what it says on their ID, or based on their background? Don’t you pick sexual partners because of your physical attraction to them?
If the victim only wants to have sex with someone for their status, and then finds the status to have been inflated or manufactured, I’m not sympathetic.
Could you maybe give a clear example of “lying to obtain sex”? I can only imagine that this would be about inflating one’s status and have nothing to do with real physical or sexual attraction.
I think it’s a sign of the times that people might feel they know somebody well enough to sleep with them just by reading a dating profile. But let’s say you take a profile at face value and jump into bed, because something on their profile(!) makes them sexually desirable to you.
You later find out that it was a lie. So you are not responsible for your choices? What if the profile turns out to be 100% true? Are you responsible for your choices in this case?
As I see it : either way you’re making a choice. Nobody is making you have sex – which is the definition of rape.
I am very interested in your answers, especially in what example you might give.
People can be misled. And some people go to great lengths to mislead others. Look at Bernie Madoff and all the very intelligent people he conned out of money. Would you say they should have withheld consent? Of course not, and that’s why Bernie Madoff is in jail. It’s the actions of the offender, not the victim, that makes corrupt behavior a crime.
Con artists harm people. And when that harm exploits a person’s reproductive organs, they should go to jail. If the victim was sexually assaulted in any other way, the offender would be charged with a crime.
Your definition of rape is incorrect. “Making someone have sex,” is not the definition of rape. The definition of rape is “non-consensual sex.” When you are tricked into sex you have given your assent, but not your consent to the act. Consent requires your reasoned and knowledgeable awareness. Someone deliberately clouding your reasoning or knowledge is sexually exploiting you. They are using the same means Bernie Madoff used to exploit his victims but his goal was to get their money, while an emotional predator’s goal is to invade their reproductive organs.
As to giving you an example of lying to obtain sex, read the stories of victims on this blog…. you’ll see them under “Cad Tales”
Last, but not least, you stated that you pick sexual partners by physical attraction. That shows a great deal about why you don’t see the harm in being duped into sex. You have a superficial and shallow connection to your reproductive organs. Emotional attraction, not physical attraction, is what sex is about, unless you simply lack the brain chemistry of emotional bonding. If someone lying to have sex with you doesn’t bother you, don’t press charges against them. But don’t deny others the justice they deserve because you personally don’t emotionally connect with your reproductive organs. Just because sex is superficial to you does not make it superficial to the next person.
All the examples
My definition of rape is ‘sex with the right to withold consent removed’, which I think is a pretty good definition. But your definition of consent is faulty. It conflates ‘the sexual act’ with the person you’re having sex with. The specifics of the personality that you’re consenting to sex with doesn’t enter into the bargain. The consent is given for the act. It’s on the participants to know about each other’s personalities or not.
Some of the CAD Tales are truly sad, but standard fraud can still be prosecuted. Every example of ‘lying to obtain sex’ found within them is really just about misrepresenting status. He claimed he had this job, he said it was a diamond ring… Well, if this was the basis of the sexual attraction, then it’s superficial. It’s shallow to trade sex for status. Physical attraction, on the other hand, can not be misled in the same way.
So if all we are talking about is women who think that the man they go to bed with has a higher level of status, but then discover he doesn’t, they will rightly be angry. But no, I don’t believe they should have a legal recourse. The issue is still about knowing whom you are sleeping with and doing your due diligence. Yes, there are skilled liars and manipulators out there. That’s the reason we do it.
There are clearly problematic, sketchy men out there spinning elaborate stories to entrap women emotionally and then set them up for abuse. Absolutely. And women have also been known to entrap and abuse men emotionally. But what we all need is to take more responsibility for ourselves, not less.
Bernie’s victims were sold investment proposals, and were told that there investments were making returns, a lie which elicited further investment. The CADtales victims were not really sold anything, because sexual consent isn’t a legal trade. Once you give it, you’re good to go, regardless of what you receive in the outcome.
Your law proposes handing over responsibility of consent to one’s partners, despite having full knowledge, awareness and personal autonomy of the act itself. Not the person. The act. And however you spin it, you have knowledge of the act. To make your law stick, you have to redefine consent to include the personality/status to make it work, which is unconvincing.
My heart does go out to these women but redefining rape is not the answer. We have a good definition already.
Your definition of law is incorrect. Here is what law says about sexual assault: “Non-consensual sex is sexual assault.” This is not simply my opinion. Read my lips…. it’s the law. It’s common sense. It’s the very first line in the ItsOnUs Pledge endorsed by President Obama.
“The specifics of the personalities doesn’t enter into the equation….” You are totally incorrect. And many states across the country already have laws to prevent impostors from having sex with you, even when you assent to the act. They simply do not apply this principle evenly across the board. That’s what sexual assault by fraud law will do. Again…. you are assuming based on your prejudices, not based on either facts or law.
“There are clearly problematic, sketchy men out there spinning elaborate stories to entrap women emotionally and then set them up for abuse. Absolutely. And women have also been known to entrap and abuse men emotionally.” Correct, there are. And when they do so to sexually exploit your reproductive organs, they are sexually assaulting you, not seducing you. No one has the right to touch your reproductive organs without your consent…. even when you assent to their doing so. Consent involves making reasoned decisions based on facts. When facts are treacherously fabricated, the offender has committed a crime. And whether you like it or not, everyone has the right to make choices for themselves whether you approve of their choices or the basis of their choices. It’s their inalienable right to make those choices.
“Because sexual consent isn’t a legal trade.” It’s not, but non-consensual sex is an illegal act. Not all crimes are crimes of money, assets, or business related. Like any crime of assault, it’s a crime against your “person.”
The victim is entitled to “know the person” who they are having sex with. People who use a ruse to deliberately confuse your ability to know them are sexual predators. The act is not the only criteria that must be clear in sex, and it’s utterly preposterous that you think it is. Your belief is likely to be the result of the same emotional disconnect that makes you think that physical attraction is the basis for sex, not emotional bonding.
“many states across the country already have laws to prevent impostors from having sex with you” Like what?
“Consent involves making reasoned decisions based on facts.” Not a legal definition, but your wishful thinking.
Consent just has nothing to do with status or emotions as it stands before the law. It refers to the act, not to the wealth of your sexual partners or the quality of the ring they bought you.
And yes, sex is the result of physical attraction. Who is having sex with partners they aren’t physically attracted to?
No mention in your response of the fact that every one of these examples refers to inflation of wealth / status rather than any truly emotional deception. Emotions are something adults are expected to manage for themselves.
People can always take more responsibility for themselves and their reproductive organs if they so wish.
Do you see any potential for abuse of this law, were it to come into effect?
“Many states across the country already have laws to prevent impostors from having sex with you” Like what?”
Obviously, you have not read either my book or this blog. The information is covered in both places.
“Consent involves making reasoned decisions based on facts.” Not a legal definition, but your wishful thinking.”
Quite the contrary… it’s you, not I, that’s indulging in wishful thinking. You should refer to Model Penal Code, which, btw, has been adopted into the penal codes of many states across the country. But just to make it simple for you, here’s what it says….. “Consent is ineffective,” which is legal ease for it doesn’t exist, “when induced by force, duress or deception.”
“Consent just has nothing to do with status or emotions as it stands before the law. It refers to the act, not to the wealth of your sexual partners or the quality of the ring they bought you.”
Again, you fail to comprehend the basic harm of deceit and why the identity of the person is germane when you engage someone is sex. Reasonable people don’t go around having sex with strangers. If you do, you would not be able to prosecute them as a result of this law. You must act as a “reasonable person” would act, and that is required of most states in prosecuting any criminal act. When the offender violates you through a significant, deliberate, and provable hoax, they could be prosecuted.
If you enter a business contract based on credentials you don’t possess, your contract could be voided, and if the other person suffered resultant harm, they could commence an action against you to reclaim their damages. If you took a job based on false credentials, you’d get fired. Would you say that the employer was at fault for hiring you?
Deception vitiates consent. When you agree to something, if your agreement is based on deception, you have assented to the act, but not consented to the act, and consent, not assent, is required in all sex acts. Unfortunately, not all penal codes in all states makes this concept clear and language to clear it up should be enacted so society understands this principle.
“And yes, sex is the result of physical attraction. Who is having sex with partners they aren’t physically attracted to?”
You stated that physical attraction was the totality of why people have sex. You are wrong. Emotional connection is why people have sex. If you are emotionally involved with a person, they may be the ugliest creature known to man, and you won’t care. Beauty is entirely in the eyes of the beholder, and based on your feelings. If it weren’t we would all be attracted to the same person. We’re not.
“No mention in your response of the fact that every one of these examples refers to inflation of wealth / status rather than any truly emotional deception. Emotions are something adults are expected to manage for themselves.”
No one has the right to artificially stimulate your emotions by treachery. When they do so to engage in sex, they are assaulting, not seducing you. When a person lies about who they are, “false personation” or “false pretense,” they will go to jail for a myriad of crimes, including obtaining a driver’s license or a wildlife card in the state of Florida, or theft by fraud in any state in the union. When they do so to vitiate your self determination regarding your body, they are assaulting you just like if they gave you a drug. You need to learn more about the brain chemistry of emotional attraction.
“People can always take more responsibility for themselves and their reproductive organs if they so wish.”
People who are hoodwinked don’t know it is happening until after the fact so your comment is simply callous, dismissive victim blaming.
“Do you see any potential for abuse of this law, were it to come into effect?”
We don’t fail to prosecute murderers or thieves because someone could abuse the law. Criminals are criminals and should be prosecuted. Victims deserve justice. Erin Pizzey, known as the creator of “women’s shelters,” calls rapists “soul murderers.” People who are violently assaulted often are plagued with PTSD. People who are raped by fraud are affected by Complex PTSD, which results from coercive control, and particularly coercive control related to reproduction. Judging by your lack of awareness, I expect your next comment will be, “How is sex related to reproduction?” And my answer will be “Duh!”
If you’d like to learn more, you should read other articles on this blog and “Carnal Abuse by Deceit, How a Predator’s Lies Became Rape.”
Hi Joyce,
I like many have been conned by a Psychopathy Narcissist, whom emotionally raped us and Mind Fucked us to the realm of big confusion.
He has a harem plus long term GF of 15 years, whom I believe has Stockholm Syndrome…and she herself contributes to him keeping his secret double life away from their friends and family. I can say this as I spent time of 5 months of texting, talking and meeting up with her, to help her and hopefully have him outed to save him from hurting other victims… NOPE, as long as he only has her as the public GF, spends money on her and takes her traveling, she stays. They have a unwritten agreement. BUT she still gets phone calls, FB messages and finds out about him being with many women. She is the jealous type and it does cause her to have melt downs. So I ended my helping her.
He uses sex as a way of having us be bonded to him. There our many who do not understand how this happened. What is the hold the Nari. have over us. Why do they cheat? Why do they need more sex partners and lies and lies just to lie as they don’t know what else to do but lie.
I have done so many Googles and YouTube.com on the subject of the Narcissist being Hyper-sexual and how they use this to victimize us with sex. Today I found it, as Mr. Grannon, is using Sam Vaknin book for reference and explains to us less tolerant of Sam Vaknin
Sam Vaknin I am sure you know of. He is a walking Google on Narcissists and a reformed Narcissist. Healed? NO. I am on a Narcissist forum Called Narcissist Support on YouTube.com that helps so much.
Today I saw this video. 3 moments of highlights.
RICHARD GRANNON SPARTANLIFECOACH
Narcissism and Sexuality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7_PS2rZGec
Big Ahh haa moments 25 minutes 57 minutes and 1hour into video.
So Joyce, how to help with the CatFish Law and Rape by Fraud in CA?
Kindness to you.
Healing Victim-
I’m so sorry to hear what you’ve been subjected to.
Narcissists can be driven by a variety of forces. They are forever trying to prove their worth to themselves. Some look to do so through repeated sexual conquests and domination. Some are actually addicted to sex.
The girlfriend you described is an enabler. Her attachment chemistry is way out of whack. She’s in denial. He keeps her around to give himself a sense of legitimacy, but he has no allegiance to her whatsoever. She’s simply a pawn in his game. She’s an anchor through which he feigns credibility.
I’m not so sure that I’d characterize Sam Vanknin as a “reformed” narcissist, but certainly, a self-aware one.
There’s an interesting new case in CA of “sexual battery by fraud.” Here’s the link to my post.:
California may be ripe for a new law that expands their concept of this crime to include fraud in the inducement, which is what happened to you, as well as fraud in the factum, the type of fraud used in the recent arrest. Please let me know what town you live in and if this is where your relationship took place?
Palos Verdes and Orange County was where. I live in San Fernando Valley Sherman Oaks
Joyce I loved your interview and I would love to interview you for my YouTube Channel. Narcissists and sociopaths are born lying and this is such a common horiific thing that they do. I recently did a video on if “rape” is sex with a stranger then if you are completely lied to by a narcissist why isn’t this against the law. I am in NYC at the end of the month can we chat? tracy@cowebop.com
Thanks for your interest. You can reach me offline at StopRomanceScams@yahoo.com.
Tracy-
i watched a YouTube interview you had with Angie Atkinson where you divulged that you and the next woman were both infected with an STD, and his first wife had also been infected with that STD.
It seems that this man is undeterred from passing along his STD and it is a case you should discuss with the prosecutor. In CO, passing along HIV is a specific crime. But prosecutors may pursue the criminal charge of assault against a predator who knowingly spreads an STD. Particularly in a case where his doing so placed his victim at risk for cancer, and with the quantity of sexual relationships he treacherously pursues, they may take a serious look at what he’s doing.
It is not really about the sex. IT is what they do to you to get the sex and keep you hooked. Most of these people have a very high sex drive. They use sex as a tool. They tell you words as WE are soulmates and you bring excitement and joy to my life. They are so good WITH WORDS.
DO SOME HOME WORK ON NARCISSIST AND PSYCHOPATHIC. They use human beings as a drug. They are deviant evil creatures who have been doing this with INTENT, TO mind fuck their prey. They get off on hurting people. It is entertainment for them. They are criminals of mind fuck rape….It is not like a booty call or just calling you up to hook up. THEY romance you with words and seduce your mind with brain washing. They go after vulnerable people.
Covert Narcissists are the worst. They are very charming people, actors, have money and power and get away with looking like they are such a great person, living a secret double life. They need supply of women or men. They rotate their supply of human beings. They like the chase to see if they can hook you. Look UP RED FLAGS of a Narcissist. Hitler, Charlie Manson, and to this day many, many sick evil creates of no humanity switch Great Fakers. Research. They take your rights away by tricking you about the information you should know, with lies that go on for months and years.
Narcissist /Psychopaths are great mind manipulates. They brain wash us over time. They love-boomb us, as you are the right one for me, I am so happy I found you on and on. Think of Charlie Manson, how did he manipulate all those women?? They have mind control tactics to get us to trust them. It is NOT just based on a casual sex thing going on or a one night stand, it is mind fuck rape of making us so emotional crazy. READ Psychopath Free- This book shows what and how they do what they do to their victims of supply to feed them. They use human-beings as a drug. They do this to many, as you think you are the only one and they have been doing this for years and have many. On many dating-sites you will see the same men or women on there for years. Using the same photo, the same lines. A great place to find their victims.
Inequities always exist in carrying out any law. We don’t stop prosecuting murders and robberies because unjust determinations can be made. Instead, we try to improve the way cases are dealt with.
The same is true for sexual assault. SexFraud is a crime. Much as you protest, when someone defrauds you of sex, they’re sexually assaulting you. Arguing that we should’t have laws to outlaw this crime is like saying we shouldn’t prosecute murderers because they could be wrongfully convicted.
Here are some fine examples of how women manipulate men…
http://thoughtcatalog.com/melanie-berliet/2015/04/10-women-reveal-exactly-how-they-nudged-their-boyfriends-into-marriage/
Obviously Carl, you don’t understand the difference between motivation and fraud. The illustrations don’t provide stories of LIES. They explain the fears they found in their boyfriend’s psyches, and how they overcame them.
Ms Short has repeated 1000 times that the proposed law is gender neutral, but to respond to those who accuse her of anti-male bias, i would say that i disagree with Ms Short. I would propose the law only apply to female victim. Also, even for those who disagree with me, the vast majority of rapes of any kind of perpetrated by males against females, and we have no obligation to enact a law that equally protects males, that i sjust ridiculous.
Barbara-
I appreciate your perspective.
Society has recognized that men can be raped. Criminal Intent, SVU, aired an interesting episode of the rape of a man this past week. The typical, stereotype shaming and blaming was reversed, with the pregnant girlfriend denying that her fiance could be raped. Today, no state would pass legislation that failed to consider the possibility that a sex crime could not happen to a male.
I understand that it can happen to a male, and while I would support any law that would help women (even if it applied to males as well), let the males eat cake. We need to look out for ourselves, males as a GROUP are our enemies, are the ones in power, are running the system of patriarchy. Every time we say “not all males are bad” and “some women rape,” we weaken our defense. To ask for a law that protects males as well, is defeatist in my opinion. As I said, I would support it if would help enough women, but to even acknowledge males’ problems in this conversation, I believe is pandering. Look at this blog: where are all the dozens of replies from males who are supporting this law? They as a whole do not support us, why should we support them? You would think at least there would be a number of gay men writing in, in support, so they could be protected from rape — but no, even gay men wont stand up for women. I really encourage you to stop defending this law as gender-neutral, even if that’s what’s required for it to get passed. Our pandering is a lot of what gives males power — aside from all the violence they use to enforce their power.
To clarify: even gay men wont write in, to support this law which would protect them from other men who could rape them by fraud — because they are going to stand by their hetero brothers before they are going to be caught defending a law that might help a lot of women. And I have not read one post from someone who mentions same sex relationships — it’s all about men, and women, worrying about those poor males who might be convicted. I’m going to stop subscribing to this blog now, because although I would certainly support this law as long as I can see that it will be effective in helping women, and I know you are debating people to point out the logic of the law, I cannot read any more of dignifying these people’s comments with responses. Men have declared war on women, and the time for talking is past.
Barbara-
I understand your disgust at the comments that are coming in. I’m equally appalled at how viciously people will defend their right to harm others. It’s ironic and deplorable.
I’ve written this blog in order to create a meaningful dialogue over this subject and I don’t believe that talking only to people who are in agreement will bring about a change.
Rather, I think if we don’t address the dissension, we’re simply preaching to the choir. For that reason, I’ve tried to build a resource that people can use to understand this crime, and debate the issues, but preferably, in a respectful manner.
Unfortunately, the debate is likely to include people who are clueless about boundaries, and I think they show themselves pretty early-on in the discussion.
I know you’re a staunch advocate, and I appreciate your support!
I completely agree with you. It is so hard NOT to get caught up in ‘but men get raped too’ ‘not all men rape’ ‘not all men batter’ etc but I think it’s time we stopped.
If men have issues with men being raped, manipulated etc etc then let men organize their own forums, their own support networks and their own platforms. I am heartily SICK and tired of seeing men hijacking blogs, facebook pages, twitter pages that are dedicated to supporting and helping women with things that affect only WOMEN. Women know how to handle their own shit.
Men need to start handling theirs on their own.
This ‘not all men’ nonsense that men go on with for example, is the perfect way to turn our minds away from highlighting and engaging the world on the real and often frightening things we go through as WOMEN.
WE ARE NOT MEN, we don’t know what it is like to experience rape for example from a man’s perspective so why would we be expected to hold a space for them? I don’t get it! Yeah empathize, yeah acknowledge, but don’t allow men to take over every single post that is intended for women so they can make all about them. It’s crazy!
Where are all the male run forums for women affected by Male Intimate Domestic Abusers? Where are all the men highlighting that 75% of Psychopathic Personalities are in fact MEN. Where are the men on here advocating for women’s issues? Or even sticking to the point of the of the website and the bio above. There are none.
They are whining, hijacking and attacking the website owner for NOT being absolutely specific to holding a special space for them in her effing bio. Her bio, which is personal to HER, it is her BIO for god sake.
I have literally just started a Facebook Page that I have dedicated to women only that have been affected by male narcissists. I have seen other pages constantly trying to appease and pander to threatened males who hijack women’s posts as well as the admins posts and make it all about them, to me dealing with them looks almost a full time job and the women never get heard.
I am a woman that was chronically abused by a male narcissist, that’s MY experience, I know nothing about what it feels for a male to be abused by a male narcissist or a female narcissist. I am working with I know about and this will make life so much easier for me when posting and it will be easier for women to voice and express themselves with the knowledge that they are free to do so.
Often women also bring up the fact that men go through la la la too, and that’s fine. On my page they will be told in no uncertain terms that absolutely I know that men go through this, but if you would like to discuss that then find a page that deals with men AND women, this page is dedicated to women only. And to hell with the rest.
So, again I completely agree with you on this.
Let women deal with themselves and let men deal with themselves.
Sally Ann-
I appreciate your perspective. And I applaud the efforts you attempt to make for women. Unfortunately, most of the male sponsored sites like Male Studies, Tom Leykis, etc., are bully pulpits for misogynist rhetoric.
Sex, for the most part, requires the cooperation of men as well as women. And for this reason, I think it’s necessary to include both in the dialogue. And it would be absolutely impossible to pass legislation that prohibits raping a woman, in this day and age, if it could not also be utilized to protect a man.
Yes, there are far more male jerks who lack empathy and sound off on their disordered concepts on this site vs. intelligent, empathetic ones who see the light. There are; however, those who do.
I’m not denying that men don’t get raped in order to stand up for women who do. Men get raped. and the law should protect them as well.
a typical feminazi.
If lying crates rape then women are far more guilty than men.
Wear make up?
push up bra?
clothes that hide a fat ass?
heels that make you taller?
Women already happily rape drunk men and give no thought to if a drunk man can consent and if we did include them in rape statistics women wou8ld be the biggest rapists on the planet.
But instead men actually get ridiculed if they are so drunk they cannot perform see and we have terms like “brewers droop” to mockingly describe it.
Men are also forced to pay child support to the rapist female if she get pregnant.
RAPE CULTURE INDEED.
So the guy is so loaded he can’t perform. And this is rape how?
But seriously, you’re assuming that the law would not be there to protect men just as it’s there to protect women. You’re showing your misogynist bias.
It is considered rape if a person who is drunk has sex because a drunk person cannot give valid consent and this attitude from feminists goes as far as to say any amount of drink.
Or at least it is if a woman is drunk, if a man is drunk women give no thought to his inability to consent in fact the only thought is if he can perform.
Men legally forced into paying child support to women who raped them when the men were below the age of consent children and got pregnant from the rape.
THIS is the real rape culture we live in.
Protect men?
The laws have already been changed so a woman can marry, whore herself out for a few years then divorce and get a life long payout. And even if there was a prenuptial they get thrown out nowadays.
And you want men to trust this law like they have marriage laws and prenup laws, in the past only to see them altered to screw them over?
You are insane.
MGTOW.
LMAO
OK.
Girls and women have been raped, impregnated by their rapist and have been forced into giving birth to their rapists baby.
And also forced to raise that child without ANY support from said rapist or anyone else. And girls have gone through this as young as 12 years old.
So your point is what?
Where are all these rapist women living who are impregnating themselves with underage male sperm just so they can get their fucking money? LMAO
Do you know how much it costs to raise a kid mate?
Why would a woman settle for child support as income when the income has to go mostly to the child?
Surely a woman that vindictive, selfish and money hungry would want a real income from a real man.
And if the woman herself raped the under aged male, and got pregnant but was able to go to court and get financial support for her rape baby, the I’d blame the law makers.
Who as we ALL know are men men men.
You need a good kick in the hole and then after you need a good dose of common sense, and for god sake, stop bloody whinging.
So Carl,
You do understand that when a woman puts make up on, that she does this for herself and not for men?
You do understand that women like to enhance their shapes with all different kinds of lingerie because it makes them feel great about themselves and that they do this FOR themselves, not for men?
You do understand that when a woman put’s on her high heels it is usually because that they look great with whatever outfit she’s chosen, and she feels great in them and that they are not worn for men?
You do understand also that if a woman hides her fat ass with clothes, it is nothing to do with you or anyone else, male or female?
You do understand that women don’t give a fuck what men think about anything to do with their appearance?
Why then do you believe that women are lying to men?
And all these drunk men that you claim are getting raped by women, do you slut shame them? Will there be warnings for men now about the clothes they’ll have to wear, and the amount of alcohol they drink in order not to be vulnerable to these female rapists,? maybe they’ll get whistles, anti rape nail polish and be told to travel in packs of men in order to avoid being detected by a female predator.
But if they do get raped, do you hold these men responsible for getting too drunk and putting themselves in the position of being vulnerable to rape, surely they shouldn’t be drinking at all if that is the case. Maybe their trousers were too tight and they passed out from their circulation being cut off, that made them vulnerable to being raped, I hope they are more careful next time, and hopefully they will adjust their disgraceful drinking behavior that LED to them being raped.
Stupid fools, don’t they know that their drinking caused them to be raped?!!
Tom-
Just to clarify, it’s not just “fake doctors” who use the medical ruse. It’s real doctors as well. When doctors are “fake” however, there are additional fraud charges that can be brought against them.
Using “trickery” to sexually violate a person is a crime, period, no matter what form of trickery you use. It is a crime for the very same reason that a switch by a doctor would be a crime. It vitiates your knowing consent and your self determination over your body.
To the people that say that sex is just sex and it shouldn’t be such a big deal as to require intimacy, etc — i agree. So if it’s “just” sex, and not important, then there’s no need to lie about it, after all, it’s not important. And by the way, in case some people still live in a cave, you can die from sex — many many people have — and, the stork doesn’t bring babies. I agree, it’s “just” sex — life or death,, no biggie.
We live in Seattle, not New York City where people are all still clannishly hung up on their ethnicities , living in their little ethnic fiefdoms, and where to move to another borough after 25 years is like moving to Bulgaria.
My work is done here…….
Ms. Short , I’m listening to you on the Tom Leykis Show and I believe I just heard you say that a man had sex with you after falsely telling you he was Jewish and that you would not have had sex with him if you knew he was not Jewish. Finding this out about you is not surprising after listening to you for several minutes or more already, and it simply makes me dislike you even more, adding to an already healthy level of dislike . I won’t make it any more personal than this since that would give you ammunition to dismiss my letter as just coming from a crank, Your proposed law is an odious over-reaching mistake and as Tom said all of us non -neutered males know that it would be enforced almost exclusively against men, not women , your disingenuous protestations to the contrary aside.
By the way, Joy, nice job in lining up a couple of obvious shill supporter callers calling in to Tom, from New Yawk City.
Tom,
I have followers just like Tom does. Would you call Tom’s followers, like you, shill supporters?
Joyce
People have a right to set whatever criteria they wish on who they want to engage in sex with, and no one has the right to undermine your self determination by defrauding you.
Telling me he was of a different faith that the truth was only one of several lies he told me about himself. All of those lies gave me a very different sense of who he was than the truth. In Florida law, it’s called “false personation.”
By the way, I don’t think of my life as a personality contest. Not liking me is your prerogative.
Joyce
“people have a right to set whatever criteria they wish….”- in the real world not your world of rationalizations , that’s called bigotry.
I truly don’t see how a person’s right to self determination over their sexual sanctity can be interpreted as bigotry. People really do have the right to make sexual choices for themselves. They don’t have to have sex with people who they chose not to. And if the person infringes on their choice by defrauding them of that choice, they’re sexually assaulting them, not seducing them.
Then you should have no problem with me, as president of my country club, passing a bylaw not allowing “your kind” in my country club. And of course you have a problem with that. You’re a hypocrite as well as a religious/ethnic bigot. By the way I ‘ve never set foot in a country club.
I see…. So you equate having sex with joining a country club….. Shows just how out of touch you are with intimacy and a person’s right to make choices over the use of their body.
So I guess all those folks on JDate and Christian Mingle are bigots too! And the matching efforts of sites like EHarmony, so you connect with someone with similar core values, that’s bigoted discrimination as well! Everybody should just have sex with everybody in your opinion!
yeah, bigots. You finally got one right.
You told Tom you wouldn’t have had SEX with guy if he had been honest about not being a Jew. You didn’t mention marriage. A person has a right to marry someone of the same faith, that’s a different issue and of course you know that.
my what a thinskinned little person , just deleting away. Logic is the one thing that you can’t deal with and I’m presenting just too much of it for you
Tom- Ad hominem attacks and vulgarity will be deleted. Speak in a disrespectful fashion and your remark will be trashed.
Shows how little you value sex….. Seems you’ll have it with just anyone, not simply someone you have a close intimate bond with. To you…. it’s just sex.
If you want to value sex set a hourly rate and have a pay before play policy.
Carl-
It’s pretty obvious that to you, sex is purely a physical act. If that’s all that your sexual organs are to you, than assaulting them would only be assault, and there would be no rape laws.
Sexual organs and their role in human emotion and trauma is what sets violent rape apart from assault.
So in your world you don’t have a right to look for someone with similar values when you enter into an intimate relationship with them??
You have a right to look.
Your failure to look successfully does not make you a rape victim any more than a woman who is dis-satisfied with the sex she got is one.
But start with prosecuting women for wearing:
make-up.
High heels.
Hair extensions.
boob jobs
push up bras
clothes that hide a fat ass.
ALL THESE are deceptions of a physical and sexual nature designed to make a woman look more attractive than she really is.
Then move to gold digging females.
And while you are at it lets start arresting women for rape when they have sex with drunk men rather than having a mocking attitude towards men about not being able to “get it up” or as its known “brewers droop”.
Can you imagine if women were unable to have sex due to a excess of alcohol drying up and closing up the vagina and society laughed at them and said they were “not real women” and called it “brewers drought”.
But no that attitude is just for men, for women its all about consent.
It is MEN who live in a rape culture, men who have to pay child support to the children women got from raping them.
And now your sickening attitude wants to allow women to cry rape if the guy lied about his wealth to get sex.
Try not being whores first.
Mr. Colvin, do I understand your position correctly? Are you arguing there is no difference between the act of sticking your penis in a woman’s vagina and joining/visiiting a building/club?
The vagina in this senario is part of a human body, it is not some object. Do you believe it should be a man’s right to enter any vagina/human body he pleases? Do you believe a woman should lose her right to consent to what men can put their penises in her vagina/body, if the men who want to enter her vagina/human body don’t view her reason for refusing to consent as one which should be considered valid? If so, what tactics do you think these men should be allowed to utilize in order to override her refusal to consent?
In general, if another person doesn’t want to do something that you want for them to do, do you feel you have the right to intentionally trick/deceive them? Should some humans have the right to use other humans, and to do so deny them their ability to exercise free will/give consent? If a man intentionally withholds or lies about information he knows to be of material importance in order to procur sex, the sex he has procured wasn’t consensual and it was his intent that the sex not be consensual. Do you really disagree?
This is about clarifying the definition of consensual sex vs non-consensual sex? Do you want to have sex with a woman if her ability to knowingly consent is questionable? Do you think it should be made easier for those who do to continue to do so with impunity?
For the victim, the experience of rape and the experience of sex between two consenting adults are two very differnt acts. When talking about the crime of rape, I think it is an important distinction to recognize whether we are viewing the crime though the eyes of the party who is victimized by the act or through the eyes of the party who wants to perpetrate a harmful and damaging criminal act.
Justified-
I think you hit on an important point, and I think you can easily see the perspective of each person making their comment.
People who support the law may have been victimized, or have enough emotional empathy to understand the defilement a victim would feel.
Someone who defends their right to perpetuate this damaging behavior either would do so them self or they have very little empathy for the victim.
That’s exactly right Tom. In reading through her blogsite it is abundantly clear that the victims are only women and the perpetrators are only men. She claims that this is “gender neutral” though. Nice attempt at inclusion Joyce. People can plainly see how bigoted you are. In one of her examples of coercion into a sexual act she speaks about a person going in for a visit to a doctor’s office and having the doctor put their “man-parts” inside instead of medical equipment. Could the doctor have been a female? Can the victim EVER be male in your eyes Joyce?
Your bias is on display here for all to see.
I see…. So in that description, that makes it evident what fraud in the factum consists of, and is widely used in law books, the female doctor should penetrate the patient with her female parts instead of the male doctor inserting his male-parts. Pardon my ignorance, but I just don’t see how that’s anatomically possible!
And I’ve made it abundantly clear that victims can be male as well as female. You just chose to ignore my comment in order to badger and rant.
Lauren, this thing about the doctor with the “probe and switch” is really bizarre. . In her Short’s Law description its about a fake doctor who does the “probe and switch” and puts his “ahem”(have to use euphemisms or I get a delete) down there instead of the medical probe. You know what? I posted her the other day and told her the fake doctors doing probe and switch part and the other part about the joker who somehow fools a woman into thinking he’s actually the women’s boyfriend should be illegal in all 50 states. The real issue is this other stuff of hers about jailing people (men) for two years maximum for lies or misrepresentations to the other sex (women) about various things , lies which are currently non-actionable ,either criminally or civilly, which is absolutely outrageous..
Tom-
As I said on the Leykis show, lying about his religion is only one of a myriad of lies he told me, including that he served in Vietnam when he, in fact, avoided the draft.
People could find out what SexFraud is about by reading Carnal Abuse by Deceit. I simply did not have the time, as I clearly stated on Leykis’s show, to go item-for-item through all the lies he told me. You just picked out one of many. His entire persona was different than what he portended.
Under what circumstances does the Americans with Disabilities Act apply, which you mentioned? I have major depression, and would love to know if there are protections afforded in court, such as an appointed attorney. Would this just be in rape/fraud cases, or any kind of court case?
Hi Barbara-
Please fill out the data collection form on the home page of this blog so I have your contact information without your having to disclose it publicly. It comes to me directly at my email address.
Best-
Joyce
just figured out my soon-to-be-EX-husband’s scam, and I need FAST action.
After 18 years of marriage, AND after my husband persuaded me to retire from my 31-year career as a college English professor because he wanted to “gift” me with time to write, he revealed that he had betrayed me with hundreds of sexual affairs since the beginning of our marriage.
I went into deep trauma, as shattered by the betrayals as being duped out of my career and income. I was 60-years-old, NOT going to be hired full-time again in higher education AND my husband knew, and he acted to intentionally damage me.
He pleaded with me to give him time to “get well” from “sex addiction.” I was in shock, numb, hysterical, unable to financially support myself…
He saw ten therapists, went to 3 treatment programs, duped everyone, had sex with 37 more women, and though it all he terrorized me.
After two years, I discovered that he was not really “emotionally unstable” as he raged and cried and threatened and created absolute chaos… He was documenting my reactions. Seriously. Documenting, saving email, texts, recording me responding to crazy, painful “confessions” and saving.
He promised full financial restitution, but that was also just duping… Instead, he set me up for forgery charges, fraud charges, he filed a restraining order against me, and he foreclosed my home!
I have had to use retirement funds that should not have been accessed for five more years, and now his attorney is accusing ME of dissipating assets.
The judge listens to his attorney and rules whatever she states. My attorney is good, filing motions, documenting, compiling evidence, working with forensic accountant, but nothing is ever read by the judge and I am being completely destroyed.
I asked twice that the court order my husband to restore mortgage. His attorney rants that he has no money, although we have documented that he was depositing ten times the amount needed. The judge ruled “no” to our motion.
Within days, I must leave my home. We have lived here ten years, there was more than $100,000 equity AFTER cost of sale, at an interest rate of 2.75%
He shattered my credit.
I just realized that he stopped paying the mortgage, filed the restraining order, and charged me with the bogus financial “crimes” because he bought a new house with his new girlfriend!!!!!!
She has money, and she is connected to people he wanted to know. I think they were involved a long time, and his therapists AND his attorney know…
We finally got a copy of his apartment lease, and that’s when it all clicked…
He sadistically adds odd items to his budget, and no one “gets it.” For example, he wanted to come to the house and take my king-sized bed, some dirt shovels, and he claimed that his monthly budget included “household maintenance.” My attorney just said “that’s absurd, you don’t have a house…”
He came in the house and took many photos of appliances, although within 10 days the house is gone…
When we were in court for his fake restraining order, his attorney accidentally included an email from my husband’s girlfriend from her realtor about a house she was looking at…
No one believed me that they were buying a house and using the restraining order to block me from finding out.
Now I know I was correct! His lease on his apartment was signed 6 weeks after he documented rent as a cash payment… His attorney must have told him he had better get an apartment to cover up this horrible dissipation of my entire financial future.
My son and I have been shattered, sad to leave our neighborhood, humiliated, and I would like to send my husband, his girlfriend, his attorneys AND the judge to prison for bullying me! I am sickened that any one could be so evil…
Can I sue the girlfriend?
Any fast court injunction to demand house be paid NOW?
Can I take the issue as an emergency to civil court and bypass the corrupt and incompetent family court?
This happened to me and the guy and his wife are trying to ruin my life. I weep nightly because I don’t have the money to fight them in court. They have taken all kinds of ridiculous actions against me to try and keep me quiet. He filed for a restraining order to try to keep his wife from finding out and we got that thrown out, but he’s thrown his money around to do all kinds of other terrible things and I don’t know what to do or where to turn. Legal aid has limited funds and cannot help me. I cannot believe they’re being allowed to do this.
Smartin954-
So sorry to hear of your troubles! Could you please let me know what city and state you live in? If you do’t want that public, please fill in the form on the front page of the blog- Stop Rape By Fraud, with the information. I’ll check to see whether any resources I’ve connected with can help you in your jurisdiction.
Joyce
Pompano Beach, Florida I don’t even know how to go public. I’ve tried to get help and nobody will help me
Email me your situation and your contact information. Use the form on the home page of this blog. It comes directly to my email address and is not visible by anyone else.
I think I sent you the right form. I lost this website for awhile. Thanks so much. I just left you new notes but you can disregard. I got it. Thank you sooooo much!
You can email me any additional information directly by completing the form on the home page of the blog.
Katrina-
My heart truly goes out to you! I know the heartache of being betrayed and defrauded by the person you valued and trusted most in your life…. only to be re-victimized by the court!
It seems you would have an adultery or fornication case against the girlfriend, which would be separate from the actions that are currently pending in family court. I’m not an attorney, but I think that’s worth looking at. Each state has its own specific laws pertaining to this behavior.
In today’s society, people seem to have lost regard for marital boundaries. They hop into bed with sex partners they know to be married to others. And they seem to get a free ride in doing so. Regardless that my ex and I were married at the time, the extraordinarily wealthy woman who took him as a boy-toy, enabled him to keep his income and lavish lifestyle off the grid, and fail to support his child.
Speak to a GOOD criminal lawyer and please get back to us with information on whether that’s a viable option for you. Many of the victims here on this site were scammed by sex addicts. Finding remedies for the chaos that results is paramount, for you, and others who face similar predicaments. These villains have no empathy, not conscience, and no heart! They find equally immoral partners who will aid and abet their despicable self-indulgence. A sex partner who is not defrauded or duped into sex with a married person is equally responsible for the harm to the spouse and their family.
I will pray for your recovery!
Joyce
Smartin954-
I’ve heard that under the Americans With Disabilities Act, people who suffer depression or PTSD can be granted specific remedies by the court. They cannot be demeaned in a courtroom, and the court may be required to appoint an attorney on their case.
Is your case currently in court?
Joyce
My case is in court. I have PTDS because I was in a car accident that killed my brother. How do I get this kind of help?
Hello Joyce,
Thank you so much for being an advocate for women that have been “raped by fraud” and deceived into relationships. It not only leaves trauma, humiliation and shock, but painful emotional scars that is very hard to recover from. It touches me on a personal level. I am trying to contact you for media purposes, but can’t find any contact info. Is there an email where I can reach you? Thank you.
Huge thanks for your support!
When you use any of the data collection forms on the blog, they come directly to my email box. Some contain space for your phone number as well as your email address. All this information is private; not visible to the public on the blog.
You’ll find data forms on the pages for 50 Brave Women, for Poetry, and the Home page of the blog. If you’d like to remind me of your purpose, the front page contains a comment section… also not viewable by the public.
Joyce
Joyce, just curious about what burden of proof a victim might have if they want to move forward with a case…in the event someone asks. That would probably depend on the state, but is there any general evidence a victim would need before filing a suit?
Hi Kim- Great question!
Keep in mind, These cases are not “civil” cases, but “criminal” in nature. They are not law suits, although if the state wanted to include civil remedies in their statutes, they certainly could.
Each state sets their own criteria as to the burden of proof on all fraud cases, however, in general, they follow a pattern that is similar to the following:
1. The offender made a false statement
2. The offender knew the statement was false
3. The offender intended the victim to rely on their false statement
4. The victim indeed relied on their false statement
5. The offender usurped the victim’s property (in these cases, violated the victim’s sexual sanctity) based on all of the above.
(This description can be found on page 189 of “Carnal Abuse by Deceit.”)
In sexual assault by fraud laws, some states will punish violators who specifically lie about “false personation.” Others will provide a broader view that is more consistent with other fraud doctrine and will include lies of intent as well as lies of identity. That will vary from state to state.
One of the biggest obstacles to such laws is that lies of intent, “I’ll marry you in the morning,” have long been seen as the “puffery” of seduction. Regardless that in any other circumstance such a lie would be prosecutorial, there is considerable resistance to criminalizing the behavior as it relates to seduction.
Resistance comes from people feeling that:
a. I’ts too complex for a court to decide, yet courts decide these issues in all other crimes of fraud.
b. It’s too common and our courts will be overwhelmed.
Frankly, I believe that the behavior will diminish considerably when people realize that there is criminal prosecution for it. The most feared consequence is that people who take their wedding bands off will go to jail. It’s important to grasp that someone who does so is violating their marriage vows, embroiling the victim in adultery, and conducting sexual assault by fraud. If they didn’t intend to fool the victim, they would not have lied about their marital status. It was deliberately done to vitiate their “consent.” and should be a punishable offense.
The depth of harm in all crimes is differentiated by a “degree” of severity. The same concept will apply in sexual assault cases. For instance, a person who fooled a victim into believing they were single for a one-time hook-up could be a misdemeanor, whereas, an offender who carried out a repeated subterfuge would be charged with a Class D sexual misconduct.
There are ways that penal codes deal with severity as well as repetition of offenses. They would apply in this law as they do in all laws.
Joyce,
Interesting that in NJ, the Consumer Fraud Act, which is a civil law, does not require INTENT, to defraud, in order to win a suit. I realize you are talking about a criminal case, but thought it was worth pointing out.
Actually, i believe Ms. Short said she didnt know if this would play out as a civil or criminal offense, since the law is still being looked at by the State, if i understood correctly.
Nice to have found you. I didnt know there was such a term as “rape by fraud”. I inquired about an annulment after discovering that my husband had defrauded me by lying on our marriage license about previous marriages. I didnt learn of the fraud during an 8 year marriage. It was shocking.
Wow! It’s amazing how long offenders can perpetrate their lies. And the longer it continues, the more embroiled the victim becomes. I wish you success in your break from this toxic circumstance!
Joyce