I received this comment last night from a person who refers to himself as “Boozer.” I thought it so important that it warranted an actual post.
It demonstrates exactly how and why the crime of SexFraud takes place:
First of all, of course we know we’re having sex with a person. Men are not a bunch of creepy soulless monsters. We’re actual people as well with real feelings Guys get used and summarily dumped too. I’ve had women (only a few, lol) that never got back to me after we had sex. Did I feel bad? Of course, but I never thought they belonged in jail for it, because they don’t.
The word “entitled” is tricky. I don’t think a woman in a bar is entitled to my finances, my workplace or even my last name if I don’t want to give it out. It’s none of her business. I’m not going to share my private info with every girl I talk to on the chance we might leave the bar together later. She’s not entitled to anything of mine and if that’s a problem then she’s entitled to say goodnight anytime she pleases. If I exaggerate or put the best spin on things, she can accept that or not, it’s her choice. I’m not promising her anything except hopefully a good time. It’s 2015, if by now you’re not aware people might lie to you, you shouldn’t be out walking the streets.
Fraud in the legal sense means misrepresenting something to get money or something of value. What of actual value is given or taken during sex? Realistically the thing of most value in the situation is the man’s sperm.
And here is my response to him:
Boozer-
SexFraud isn’t about getting dumped or not calling you back after sex. I have never said that you should divulge every facet of your background when you first meet someone, but before you have sex with them, you should straighten out any lies you’ve told them.
Frankly, you have demonstrated exactly the type of mentality that’s at the heart of the problem and I thank you for being so candid. I think you exemplify a mindset that is pervasive in today’s society, and you don’t even recognize it as a “sexual assault” mentality. It starts by thinking that sex is simply a type of entertainment and an entitlement, not a privilege.
Apparently, your finances are even more “private” to you than your sex organs. You’ll expose them to someone who you barely know. But don’t worry, SexFraud laws won’t prosecute the casual hook-up in which the victim failed to behave reasonably and jumped into bed with you without any inquiry or research.
Some women feel that way as well. For instance, sex workers share their bodies with people all the time with no emotional connection to their private parts. Or so they think until they’re ripped off, like the recent case in Canberra Australia where the offender was convicted of rape by fraud by tricking her into thinking she would get paid. He gave her a bag that was supposed to contain money. It didn’t.
Just because you don’t value intimacy does not mean that other people don’t. In fact, most of moral society would more happily get ripped off for money than have their sex organs violated. One makes you angry. The other makes you defiled.
Fraud is usurping something of value through a lie. Most people actually value their sexual organs and their right to self-determination over who they share them with. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t have any rape laws at all. Violating a person’ sex organs would simply be an assault. It’s not. It’s a sexual assault, rape, sexual battery, sexual misconduct, sexfraud, or whatever name you’d like to associate with it.
Most people have “feelings” about what happens to them. They don’t necessarily “feel” (that’s called “emotional empathy,”) for what happens to others. From what you’ve said, it seems that you lack emotional empathy.
Having feelings for your own condition, but failing to feel for others is a Narcissitc, and possibly Sociopathic mentality. Lots of folks go through the world that way. Society needs to be made aware how prevalent your mentality is. And laws have to be created to protect people you would harm through you failure to stop yourself.
That person whose sexual organs have no value to you, except warm flesh and body fluids, actually lives inside her body. She is someone’s mother, or sister or daughter. And every time I’ve used the word “she” in this post, I’m also referring to the “he’s” that get violated this same way.
I have talked to quite a few people, both men and women, who have been through similar things since I found your site. The overwhelming thing people feel most violated about had been that they now question their own ability to trust someone new or worse, themselves. It is hard not to beat yourself up after something like this because you missed something. Sexual violation doesn’t seem to even cross people’s mind unless they were cheated on while still sleeping with their partner too.
I have to say I am disappointed to see that you are kicking people off your site who do not agree with you or who you can’t convert to seeing things your way. The true way to help people understand things they may not is to be inviting and open but willing to express yourself in a productive way. Even if you don’t convert someone right away, they will continue to ponder things and perhaps bend in some ways that you may never hear about. This would never happen if you don’t create a space for it. I would encourage you to invite people from all different thoughts to dialog with you and the people here. The conversation had now become boring and irrelevant when you create a space that oy allows people who believe exactly as you do.
LLLady-
I haven’t kicked people off…. only Tom. And with good reason.
There is no benefit in readers having to put up with vulgarity and ad hominem attacks in order to find meaning in what a person says. There are people who can express their opinions in a perfectly respectful fashion, even though they disagree. Tom is not one of them.
I accepted the invitation to the Tom Leykis show in order to open the discussion to people who disagree. But they need to disagree in a non-degrading, non-offensive way.
I was constantly having to delete his “fat, old hag” and similar remarks to both me and others on the site. Others can and will express his concerns. He’s not the only person with a voice. Silencing Tom does not silence discussion. But I hope it will get my point across that I intend to maintain a respectful dialogue in discussing this issue. I’ll delete the same sort of things that are not permitted on other sites; obnoxious, non-productive vulgarity and degrading remarks.
I gave him a significant amount of rope with which he hung himself.
As for your comment about loss of trust… you have hit a very important point and I hope you’ll read my post….”How can you ever feel safe when the person you can’t trust is you?” It explains this phenomenon.
LL Lady,
I find your comments both disturbing and concerning. Although blaming yourself may be a part of the emotions felt, it is far from the only ones. Why anyone that says they are in the mental health field would zero in on just that one thing concerns me on many different levels.
I never said it was all or the appropriate emotions. Most people don’t want to repeat the same things that caused them pain in the past, so they will evaluate and wonder how they could control the situation from happening again. This is normal. I am not in the mental health field either…I am a researched in the sociology field and sometimes work on relationship research. But I also have a lot of friends and talked to my friends about this. Obviously a liar is to blame for their lies but it’s natural to wonder how you ended up with a liar and how you could try to avoid that again. That is what I was saying. Oh and that my friends were far more concerned about how it affected their trust levels emotionally than they were about anything sexual.
LL Lady/ AKA Tom Colvin,
A person ends up with a liar because the liar lies.Your agenda is to blame the victim.
You thought it would be a shrewd move to seem to have a “woman” agree with you. “She” wrote the perfect comment, and you kept referring to it. Now “she” is sticking up for you. No one cares that “tom colvin” was blocked. He was an obnoxious, disrespectful jerk.
You’re a troll.
Of course you’ll come back as “anonymous,” like you just did. WHOOPS!
Some advice — instead of becoming even more obsessed with this blog, go get some help. Go get a life.
Honestly, I find this disheartening. I really am a midlife woman who wants to understand this but apparently mature and open minded conversation is not welcome here. I actually had signed that petition and then wanted to understand more especially when the most recent postings seem to boil it all down to sex. I guess that was my mistake. It’s really unfortunate because a lot more support would be given if people were given a space to understand.
You don’t fool me. Not for one second.
MissyW-
WOW! You are so on top of your game! The IP address for both our recent Anonymous and LLLady are the same! Thanks for being so astute!
They do differ from Tom, however. I think he’s gone back to being a Leykis groupie… OH, right, even Leykis kicked him out!
LLLady-
The reason that your friends relate to the problem as “emotional” rather than “sexual” is that they don’t understand how they’re linked.
When we are sexually assaulted through violence or date rape, we can more clearly see the offender as a villain. When we experience sexual assault by fraud, we hold ourselves more accountable. We fault ourselves for having been manipulated and can no longer trust ourselves to keep our own self safe. Our own mind was used as the device that got to us, not dope, alcohol, coercion or violence. The self-trust issues are far more pronounced in this type of sexual assault than in any other form of sexual assault.
Understanding that the victim was, in fact, sexually assaulted, can give them better resolve in healing. It’s a relief to learn that the harm you underwent has a name and that your trust was deliberately undermined by a manipulative process. It helps to understand what that process was so they can be on the lookout for it in the future.
I find it reprehensible that much of the therapeutic community tries to make the victim feel responsible that a deeply disordered villain, crossed their path. People pay fortunes to therapists to hear that they were “singled out because of their past childhood experiences” or their “unfulfilled desire to be harmed,” when what they really need to hear is that there are people in the world that will cheat and misuse you because they lack emotional empathy and conscience.
They are good at what they do. They are character disordered. You need to recognize the signs and avoid them in the future.
This is the first productive dialog I have received since I originally posted. I guess so muh of this comes down to semantics…the word assault means different things to different people but I am not sure the masses will begin to expand their thinking.
I agree that victim blaming is a terrible therapeutic model but I do think there’s value is rethinking anything you could have done differently. Many times there are ignored red flags which in no way negates the responsibilities of the liar/perpetrator, but can make the victim listen better to their gut in the future.
Fortunately, we have law makers who understand what assault means, and it does not necessarily entail violence any longer. The concept that violence is the only tool by which a person could be sexually assaulted bit the dust already, even though society has yet to catch up. Non-consensual sex is how sexual assault is currently defined today. Some states need to bring their codes up to date.
What con artists excel at is disarming “gut” feelings, which are inadequate in the first place.
Our ‘guts’ are not reliable indicators of danger, or safety. That’s a widely accepted myth. Our gut feelings aren’t some magical, mysterious, and infallible ability we’re born with. In reality, gut feelings are based on our knowledge and experience. Science has proven this. If you haven’t already had the experience, you won’t recognize the danger.
***
How many ways will you try to blame the victim? It doesn’t work with me. Either do your ‘subtle’ (to some) efforts to undermine Ms. Short’s cause. You have no idea what the ‘masses’ are thinking. Your arguments are contradictory and fallacious.
You made your agenda clear in your first post. Now you’re posing as someone looking for a ‘productive dialogue’? Pshawww…
I agree with your analysis of “gut.” I find that when a victim can come to grips with having been violated by a predator, they are far better at pulling themselves out of depression. They’re able to grasp that there are character disordered people we need to protect ourselves from, and, while we may not see the signs right off the bat, we get better and better at spotting them.
I think that recognition is part of the process people need in order to start trusting themselves to make the right decisions again. Also, knowing they survived it once can give them the conviction that they’ll survive it if it ever happens again.
Anon-
To say victims “ignore red flags” simply shows a lack of awareness about the addictive quality (brain chemistry), in romantic love. Often emotional predators will stir up that chemistry by using fabrication as a seduction technique. It’s part of a tool that’s recently been dubbed “love bombing.”
It’s not difficult for an accomplished predator to effectively seduce someone through this technique. Once a person has sex with a predator, they become even more deeply enmeshed in the web of lies that got them there because of the production of coupling neurotransmitters that are produced.
And even more bizarre is the toxic glue, called a “betrayal bond” that will produce denial, (probably affecting Janay Rice and Cosby’s wife) that fasten victims when the truth is revealed. My book gives a clearer understanding of this phenomenon.
You’re right — there is a real problem in the therapeutic community’s response to victims, and that’s because there’s a real problem with their understanding of disordered personalities!
“Serious Abusers and Psychology’s Failure to Understand Them,” George Simon, PhD ~
http://www.manipulative-people.com/serious-abusers-and-psychologys-failure-to-understand-them/
“When it comes to understanding human aggression and the problems it can cause in relationships, many of psychology’s most time-honored models have proven to be seriously inadequate, if not fatally flawed…”
That’s a great post! Thanks! I’d read “In Sheep’s Clothing” which I highly recommend. Didn’t know he blogged as well.
Joyce, Tom Leykis tells his male listeners to go a super swanky mall or such and hang around at an ATM..until A fatcat drops a receipt with a 6 or 7 figure balance on it. He tells them.to keep the slips in their wallet and whip them out to write their phone numbers on the slips and give them to women they chat up and would like to have sex with. Would this be criminal fraud under your law? by the way, his listeners say it works like a charm.
While I can picture Tom Leykis saying this, I can’t fathom how anyone with a significant bank balance would be so careless with their bank receipt. I think the offender would have to wait so long to secure impressive ammunition that they’d die of old age before it fell into their hands.
What it clearly demonstrates is how little respect Tom Leykis has for women that he’d conjure up such a ludicrous scheme. If he’d support this behavior to hoodwink a woman, what would he do to hoodwink a man? After all, dishonest people are dishonest people.
He probably said it to be funny and clever. Shows who he is, how his brain works, and who pays attention to his drivel. I’m sure some of his minions thought it was a great idea! 😉
No, Leykis is completely serious about the ATM slips trick. At one point he had an advertiser that sold boxes of fake ATM slips. Plenty of SoCal malls with discarded slips of the 6 figure variety. 7 figures would take a while. I would never do it but men call him all the time saying with the trick they can get fast calls back from types of women who normally throw their numbers away.
OMG! Too funny for words!
So I guess we really need to get the word out that…….
a. You’ll never know if you’ve found a gold digger, or if she simply thinks you’re cute, by dangling your hefty bank balance under your nose to attract her.
b. If you look for a gold-digger, don’t be surprised when you find one.
c. Ladies, if someone hands you a bank balance with a phone number, he could be one of Tom Leykis’ minions who’d be thrilled to deceive you. Yuck!
You’re welcome, Joyce. I wrote it for anyone who comes along and reads it, including Tom. Who knows, maybe his fear of hoards of women filing police reports about his beach house lies have been allayed 😉
Tom, I don’t think a rape-by-fraud law is intended for a “common male occasional noncriminal liar or embellisher.” Joyce, please correct me if I’m wrong.
I believe it is intended for the person you characterized a “a scoundrel and a pathological liar.” I call them con artists.
I disagree with you that fake documents only pertain to financial fraud. Someone who produces fake documents is squarely in the category of pathological liar, and it shows a clear intent to con someone in more ways than one, a clear intent to thwart a person’s ability to make decisions in their best interest that goes far beyond the financial realm.
Don’t forget, we’re not talking about someone who is in a limited role, such as a financial adviser. We’re talking about someone posing as a romantic partner, even a fiance or husband or wife. The person in that role is usually the most intimate, important and influential in someone’s life. Please try to imagine for a moment if you fell in love with a woman, and believed she shared your values, goals, etc., and you married her, in a ceremony performed in front of all your family and friends. You had a child together.
Now imagine how you would feel if you found out she was not at all who or what she said she was, and that this stranger was duping you and using you and lying to you in every way. You would feel shocked, angry, devastated, and deeply and profoundly betrayed and victimized, because EVERY facet of your life and yourself were violated. It’s not a big stretch from there to imagine that many people would rightfully conclude they had been sexually violated as well.
This is basically what Ms. Short experienced, and she knows firsthand the devastation she and others experience in such a situation. It’s a profound violation of everything you are, body, mind, and soul, and it is damaging. The damages go far beyond finances.
This kind of harm might not be recognized as a crime now, but it should be. Anyone who harms another person in this manner deserves to face criminal charges, and society should be protected from individuals like this. This type of person is a predator, plain and simple, in every way…including sexually. They infiltrate someone’s entire life. Their fraud extends to every aspect of the victims life.
It’s heinous. To find out the person you loved and trusted was nothing more than a stranger and a predator is deeply disturbing, and a real offense to someone’s most basic rights as a human being, such as their right to dignity, sovereignty, autonomy, freedom and self-determination.
Please show some empathy and compassion for Ms. Short and others who are victimized in this way. I realize you may not have understood the extent of what she experienced. Again, I think these are the types of situations this law would apply to.
MissyW-
You are right on-target with the type of sex fraud that could be prosecuted under sexual assault by fraud law. It’s the scoundrel, the down and out con artist, who targeted you and carried out a hoax.
When this happens you are both emotionally raped and sexually assaulted because your consent to sex was usurped through deceit. and it’s likely that the sexual assault took place many times over a lengthy period. This level of crime is the sort that could sustain the burden of proof and responsibility on the victim’s part.
The media came up with foolish examples that lacked both proof and responsibility, so much of the reading public learned of this crime through a very warped prism.
Some folks, like Tom, no matter how much you say, or how compelling your argument, simply want to play the “boo to the feminist” card. And I think we’ve all suffered enough of his disrespect. I don’t think his insulting responses add to the conversation so, he’s been silenced.
Thanks for the clarity you’ve added to the issue.
Joyce
You’re welcome, Joyce. I wrote it for anyone who comes along and reads it, including Tom. Who knows, maybe his fear of hoards of women filing police reports about his beach house lies have been allayed 😉
Sorry about the duplicates; I don’t know why my posts sometimes go to the top instead of being attached as a reply,
How will this law affect cheaters? If you in a relationship with a woman and she steps out in you but then has sex with her bf/husband after that, does that become rape by deception?
Anonymoue, excellent point.
A big part of what’s being missed by many readers of this blog is that you would have to prove you were lied to. It would be very hard to prove, in the context of a “casual” relationship, that someone lied about being unmarried, for example. Plenty of single people knowingly have sex with married people, and the courts are well aware of this. This law would require much more than one person’s word against another’s,
Barbara none on my side are missing that. It’s meaningless. “Proof ” …..”responsibility”…they mean nothing in a court of law in this matter unfortunately to Short and her minions because there is no crime here.. …..Short’s thinking seems to be that having both of these “big” caveats satisfied in the victims legal case can magically turn something that is not a crime into a crime. 100 witnesses of the liar telling the victim the lies and 6 months of unfruitful snooping by the victim leaving her to still believe the man’s lies will not change a non-crime into a crime.
Tom-
Your failure to acknowledge that SexFraud is a crime does not make it so. And since you’re so adamant that it’s not, you seem to be defending your behavior. You should change your ways.
Anonymous,
It’s scary that you are trying to figure that out!
Not sure why you instantly see that as suspicious. I’ve been cheated on and wanted to know if my partner would be punishable under this type of law. I wouldn’t likely ever pursue that but I think I’m lacking understanding in WHEN what is normal (sex with your partner) becomes a lie and to what degree a lie is considered fraudulent enough to be a crime under this proposed law.
Unfortunately, most cases would not be prosecuted for two reasons… insufficient proof and lack of reasonable behavior on the part of the victim. Reasonable behavior is; the victim exerts a “reasonable” amount of caution, as determined, (as it is in all crimes,) by whether a jury sees their behavior as a “reasonable person” would behave under the circumstance.
I know this level of “responsible behavior” may not satisfy some people, but it’s how criminal law treats that determination. This crime is no different.
The first step a victim would undertake is to go to the police, and they would submit the case to the Prosecutor who then decides whether or not the state will pursue it. Cases that would typically be prosecuted are ones in which 1.) the person was tricked into believing the offender was someone they would normally consent to, like a lover or husband, 2.) they were tricked as to the nature of the act, such as a doctor pursuing sexual contact under the guise of medical treatment, or 3.) the victim was totally hoaxed by someone who radically alters their identity in how they portray them self and bars discovery by using forged documents, a false name, etc.
Most of the opposition you see here….
* they say they have $84,291 in savings when they actually has $243 and are scratching to pay rent,
* they tell you they’re Brad Pitt’s best friend,
* they say they’ll marry you in the morning and never call,
would not have sufficient proof and likely, would not be sufficient, alone, to warrant prosecution.
Don’t get me wrong, lying to induce sex is Sexfraud. When it happens to you, you’ll be really upset and could feel defiled because you were. But there is simply not enough of a case to warrant prosecution in those examples.
Sex without consent is a crime. It doesn’t matter how big or small the lie is that harms the victim. But only the egregious cases in which there is substantial proof and the victim behaved in a manner that would be deemed “reasonable” by a jury, could actually be prosecuted.
I am a woman and I have to agree with Tom. I have a ton of female friends that have been through a host of scenarios. I personally don’t know Shorts story bc you have to buy the book to find out I guess, but if you sleep with anyone the night you meet them or quickly, women inherintantly know that they are taking on a certain level of risk. Especially if either or both are drinking.
I also think a woman who makes relationship judgements purely based on what a man has to offer financially isn’t much better than the liar himself. I do think that’s why if you don’t want to take risks then you don’t sleep with them until you know they are telling the truth bc you’ve met their friend or been to their house or work and so forth.
If someone creates a web of lies and you don’t know, just the fact that you had sex, a normal part of a relationship does not mean it was rape. I am in no way condoning people lying for any reason, but I don’t think the sex within that relationship suddenly becomes rape.
I do think we have too much of the “boys will be boys” attitude in this country and as a whole have lowered our expectations on how much we can trust each other and/or men. Men think women are liars too, by the way.
What I don’t see in these cases is any reflection on why someone got into this situation in the first place. We create the relationships we think we deserve and we give then permission to treat us a certain way. Both parties should be taking personal responsibility. Of course the lair has a bigger fault but doesn’t negate the other persons hand in it.
Everyone can look back after a break up and think they were wronged and taken advantage of and they would have never been involved with them in the first place just because they have hindsight. And because sex was a part of that relationship does not mean it was rape.
“If someone creates a web of lies and you don’t know, just the fact hat you had sex, a normal part of the relationship, does not mean it was rape. “Thank you LLLady. This sums up succinctly the crux of Ms. Short’s legal sophistry. Short claims that there can’t be truly consensual sex in such a relationship because the “web of lies” voids the consent. That is pure legal sophistry and artifice- simply not true ,as LLLady correctly points out. Also,the “victim” could have sex with the other person . still believing their web of lies after unsuccessful snooping effforts while physically attracted enough to have sex with them whereas a person (man) with the same web of lies ,also believed by the victim ,would not gain consensual sex with the victim do to lack of physical attraction. It’s impossible to legally prove that a woman had sexual intercourse with a man, a normal relationship activity, simply because and solely because of their “web of lies”
Game, set and match, Ms. Short. I think the best thing for you to do now would be to quietly dismantle your website and apologize to all concerned , especially to men.
It’s very interesting that you should say that Tom, since I’m a tennis instructor. Whatever makes you think that I would possibly do so?
Tom,
This country is built on freedom of speech. The fact that you are telling Ms. Short what to do by taking down her web site and to apologize to the men is both insane and controlling. Are you use to crossing over lines like that? That might explain why you are having trouble with this law. Furthermore, this is not Ms. Short’s law. (How many times do you have to be told the same thing)? This law is being introduced by Assembleman Troy Singleton of New Jersey and it is based on the Mischele Lewis case. There is a petition on Change.org with nearly 500 signatures including many men. And regarding your response about this being PH.D level, well there is a signature of a PH.D on the petition because as she states – there is a potential for damage. Again, most agree that this law needs tweaking and this is decided by the lawmakers not Ms.Short. Her book was written about her own personal experience and she is intitled to write it. This web site merely opens the discussion which you seem dead set to make everyone agree with you – some just don’t and you need to accept that.
Anonymous your uber serious response to my ironically humorous post (does anyone seriously expect someone like Short to ever do what I asked?), mirrors the humorlessness and lack of common sense of Ms. Short herself.
Tom-
If you’re trying to say that you meant your comment with humor, I’m afraid you seriously missed the mark.
Anonymous-
Thanks for your support!
Tom,
When someone lies to change their identity characteristics, the victim is having sex with a stranger, not the person they thought they were having sex with. The offender is not seducing the person, they’re sexually assaulting them.
simply your opinions, shaped by your extreme , past personal experiences with one man,., Did the lies amount to falsely posing as a medical doctor and giving you a false gynecological “probing” exam (already should be illegal in 50 states) , or did the lies consist of the liar posing as a lawyer or financial advisor and swindling you out of all or part of your life savings(already IS illegal in all fifty states) . No. That is not your case you are making.. Any judge worth his or her salt would thoroughly dismantle your arguments based on the grounds I stated (sophistry, artifice, impossible to prove the crux of plaintiff’s arguments) and send you on your way out of his or her court room with a stern “Good Day to you , Madam!”
and that reminds me . I have matters of substance to deal with. Good Day to you Madam!
LL Lady-
“but if you sleep with anyone the night you meet them or quickly, women inherently know that they are taking on a certain level of risk. Especially if either or both are drinking.”
People who sleep with someone they just met would not be taking the reasonable precautions that prosecuting a case would require. You also make the assumption that people can’t fool you if you, in fact, behave in a responsible manner. You are incorrect. And it’s those cases that would be prosecutorial.
I wrote “Carnal Abuse by Deceit” in order to help people understand what rape by fraud is about. And for many of the people who’ve read it, it’s been a meaningful eye-opener.
I don’t think that the meager sum of $12.28, Amazon’s current price for the paperback edition, or $8.25 for the Kindle version, would stand in the way of someone who really wants to understand this important topic. In fact, I find it odd that people make assumptions about what I’m saying without reading a single page.
Your assumption that “we create the relationships that we think we deserve” is grossly disingenuous to people who have been targeted by sociopaths who trick them into sex. It shows how ill informed you are about the behavior and that you really should do some more reading about it.
I find it extremely odd, Ms Short that you are trying to get people to support something without freely sharing your own story. You would likely sell more books and get more support if you weren’t so secretive about your own story. Oh wait…this reminds me of something.::I’m feeling kinda violated for my $8.25 so I can decide if I support your cause or not. If I don’t, after reading your book, have I been frauded?
Okay, sarcasm aside…really, have you looked at other grassroots websites and seen where the person who started the cause doesn’t freely share their own story? Or where they make you pay for theirs but shares other people’s stories to make a point? No, that’s not how it usually works. If I knew some of your story, maybe this would make more sense to me or being the openminded person that I am, I might buy the book to understand it more. But I wouldn’t without knowing some of the story first. And I’ve seen where you said your man didn’t let you know he was Jewish is the reason he frauded you and I just wonder, as any rational person would, that there must be more to it than that. And, Because it FEELS to me, that you are so accusatorial to those that ask questions or take differing points of view on here, that this is all based on a personal vendetta.
To your point that some people are responsible when making a decision about a new partner, the way you frame things doesn’t reconcile. If the ONLY thing you’re upset about after you find out someone lied to you about something is that they entered your body, then you are missing the bigger picture. I am in the psychology and sociology field and have talked to and studied many who have been lied to in responsible relationships. None of them bring up the sex as being the thing that hurts them…unless there is an affair and they are worried about STDs. What is hurting and feeling violated is their heart and soul, their vulnerabilities first. Sex could be a part of those vulnerabilities but it’s just a small part from my experience.
The thing that keeps “victims” psychologically stuck is not the fact they had sex with them, it their investment of their heart, time and energy. This is almost always universal to all break ups and almost always the place that they have to “get over” to move forward and find a new and hopefully, healthier relationship.
My issue with this law is not that I am in any way condoning anyone who lies or is not authentic (regardless if their motive is sex, good feelings, control) but that you’re hanging it all on sex and trying to turn only the sex within the relationship into the motive and evilness of rape. Before you bite my head off, if they did it for financial gain then that should be prosecuted.
Another thing to remember is Men look for sex to find love, women look for love to find sex. Because men are hard wired that way doesn’t validate them just going out and having sex with a host of women in hopes one day he will fall in love. But if he wants love (or is motivated by the desire to find validation or respect by dating women how all men do, but a sociopath only to his own benefit) then sex is a part of his process and you can’t then turn around and call it rape.
As my mama told me, you win more friends with honey than vinegar. You might remember that when you’re trying to beat someone over the head and tell them how wrong they are instead of addressing their real questions. They wouldn’t take the time to post them if they didn’t really want to have a mature discussion about them. You might keep that in mind and maybe you’ll sell more books too.
LLLady-
My story takes up 196 pages. And my approach to promoting the book is similar to many others who offer opinions and even blog regarding similar issues. You can read the summary and the reviews and make a determination about whether or not you wish to read it. And that’s true of all books. No one gives you the blow-by-blow.
Frankly, my blog is about the law and why there needs to be a law. I leave discussions about therapeutic information up to people with the credentials and experience to deal with it. I even promote their books on my blog.
At no time did I say that the only thing I, or anyone, should be upset about when someone sexually defrauds you, is the defilement you feel about having your body violated. But it’s a big part. And it’s a part that needs addressing so that victims can become survivors.
I shared my own story. Your criticism that I haven’t is absurd. It’s called “Carnal Abuse by Deceit.”
And not everyone on this blog intends to have a mature discussion. I think that’s pretty obvious by their comments.
I’m sure you will consider this “biting your head off,” but I think someone in the field of psychology and sociology would have more concern for the harm in defrauding people of sex as opposed to defrauding them of their assets. I know many victims who suffered both, and their sense of defilement over the breach of their sexual sanctity is far more acute for them.
Lastly, sometimes even a scammer’s friends don’t know the truth about them, and there are families who lie for them as well.
Real emotional trauma for women comes form things liek actual rape or their con man boyfriend swindling them out of their life savings which is a crime already covered by existing laws as are other real frauds , which all have legally recognized quantifiable victim’s damages/ legal revenge attached to them in terms of money and prison time.Women in general will not give much support to Short’s proposed “misrepresentation” laws, much to her dismay.. Grown women in 2015 would be too embarrassed to go running into a police station or a lawyer’s office like little girls or helpless little flowers, because they couldn’t manage or emotionally handle their own private dating lives. Hurt feelings, or vague, unverifiable and legally irrelevant “emotional trauma and distress”, because your boyfriend or date buddy didn’t own that beach house he said he owned or have the 7 figure bank account he talked about, along with the beach house, in front of your local bar buddies and you, but nonetheless still had you believing these two claims were true , despite your best efforts to snoop into his private life, are NOT, repeat not the business or purview of our overworked over-burened American courts and legal system. They would be grounds for a slap in the face , a thoroughly vulgar cussing out or a keying of the liar’s car (within reason). But that’s about it.
Tom,
I think we are all on the same page about frivolous lawsuits. There are actually 3 kinds of recognizable rape – stranger rape, date rape and emotional rape. All are traumas, with date and emotional being the hardest to get over. You keep mentioning the lie about a beach house and saying because he lied we should have him sent to jail. That is not what we are saying here. It is about real damage and trauma and that can have real consequences for the victims. Just like you, I knew nothing about any of these different traumas until I had a reason. Just research it yourself on the net. Women are not men and men are not women – we were born different for a reason and these reasons should compliment each other- not exploit the differences. Peace!
Sorry- emotional rape is not in the law books and there are good reasons that it is not after all these centuries of laws. A man can only be jailed for physical abuse of a woman not verbal abuse. Your claim that emotional rape is worse than stranger rape is simply your point of view nothing more. Many women woud disagree with you.YES , JAIL TIME and two years of it, maximum, that IS what Short wants for us, and that’s what I AM’ ADDRESSING HERE, ,whether you are or not. It is simply bad law what she is proposing ( criminalization of misrepresentations that are currently and always been non-actionable lies ,for very good reasons.
Short doen’t EVER say the lies about the beach house and the bank account are not criminally prosecutable (prosecutable=jail time) . She tries to pooh-pooh away concerns by saying of course for a prosecution 1. there .would have to be proof ( how is that a big deal or some high bar ?there could easily be witnesses to the liar claiming these things) and 2.t the person lied to would have to be “responsible” and make an effort to snoop into the liars background. We’re supposed to feel so relieved, as if its ok to charge the man with a crime as long as the woman tried to check into things and still believed him. All good. I purposely worded my post to make it clear that this caveat of hers about the plaintiff having to be “responsible’ and do fact-checking changes nothing . There is still NO CRIME whether she checks and snoops for 6 months and still believes the guy.
All laws assume “responsible behavior” on the part of the victim. In NJ their penal code, in many statutes, identifies that a crime is a crime when a “reasonable person” would see it as a crime.
Tom-
You simply fail to recognize that using trickery to sexually penetrate someone is a physical act, not a verbal abuse. And you are correct about emotional rape not being a criminal act, although causing extreme emotional distress is a tort which can be dealt with in civil court.
Trickery- that’s a very vague, term with a multitude of interpretations so stop using a word I’ve never used, to try to counter my arguments. I’ve not mentioned “trickery”- I’ve only mentioned men LYING about their finance their possessions or their religion none of which are crimes or should be crimes . Men’s lying to women about their assets, finances and religion IS a form of verbal abuse, you are wrong if you claim otherwise. It is verbal abuse with the emotional trauma and distress coming not immediately, as when a woman humiliates, derides and ridicules a man, causing all sorts of hurt and trauma, for the man (but who cares about that?) but only at the point in time when the woman realizes the words the man spoke was a lie or multiple lies.
kind of just a mopping up operation here tonight with my last final posts on your page Short.. LLLady pretty much delivered the ultimate defeat to you,s with her excellent post this noontime, although you don’t want to acknowledge the fact.- kind of sad to see Short and her “true believers” still valiantly trying to defend their basically indefensible points folks. An A for effort for you gals. My work is done here. hahahahaaah
You keep promising you’re done but coming back.
You seem very concerned about protecting people’s ability to harm others in this insidious fashion. Are you a person who lies to get sex from a woman? Do you really think there is nothing wrong with that? Do you not understand that people live inside their bodies and that sexual violation is not your right?
Tom Colvin’s got his knickers in a knot! He’ll be back — he can’t help himself. He’s off somewhere trying to think up something clever, since “take your web site down and apologize” didn’t work.
🙂
Tom’s exhausted my tolerance for non-productive, ad hominem slinging debate.
Hopefully he’s exhausted his own, too 🙂
Tom-
Lying is a form of trickery. Sexually assaulting a person is a form of physical abuse. When you use lying to sexually assault someone, you are abusing them.
Anonymous-
Several forms of rape are identified in penal code:
Violent Rape
Date rape (which generally includes rape by Doping or Intoxication)
Rape by Coercion- threat of harm
Rape by Authority- such as a prison guard, (regardless of consent)
Rape by Fraud or Deception (which is in-part included in the penal code of many states)
Rape of a minor who is under the age of consent
Rape of a person who’s mentally incapacitated, therefore unable to consent.
Most states, including NJ, have contended that the act of penetration is sufficient force to warrant a rape charge, even when violence does not occur. Bluntly stated, his willy doesn’t just fall into your girly parts. (And yes Tom, sexual contact laws makes it a gender neutral crime when the offender is female.)
Emotional rape is what happens to a person when their highest emotion, which is love, is taken under false pretenses. It’s what Donna Anderson refers to as LoveFraud. Because it does not actually violate your sex organs, although it often is accompanied by SexFraud (rape by fraud) which does, emotional rape is not considered a criminal offense.
There are situations in which a person could be defrauded of their emotions, but not defrauded in order to sexually violate them.
People have sued, and won cases of emotional distress against offenders who create emotional rape. But it is not, and probably never will be, considered a crime. And in most jurisdictions it is unlikely to prevail in an emotional distress case if no violence or physical harm took place.
if you would be emotionally traumatized and distressed to the extreme extent that you are implying you would be ,because the guy you’ve been dating for 6 months or a year or two finally admits that the doesn’t own that beach house he said he had or the bloated bank account salted away in The Bahamas, then you needed to be in heavy therapy long before you met his guy. Sorry, im just not buying what you or Short are saying and I really don’t think many women are either.
Tom,
It’s hard for a person who lacks emotional empathy to put themselves in the shoes of another person.
If you are a person who thinks tricking people into sex acts is perfectly ok, and that something is wrong with THEM if they are distressed by it, YOU need serious psychotherapy. But it probably won’t help because sociopathy is not a mental illness, it’s a character disorder, and there is virtually no cure for it.
Tom-
Thanks for showing us how little respect you have for a woman’s body.
Obviously, you know what fraud is because you can apply it when someone steals your assets. But you just as obviously don’t understand what sexual assault is…. violating your sex organs by non-consensual sex.
You get the fact that if someone lies to you to take something you own, it’s a crime. But lying to you to sexually violate you is just little girls being wheeny whiners. And you completely disavow that it happens to men as well as women.
If you doped someone to violate them, you might be willing to understand the harm… but duping someone to accomplish the same thing is a joke to you.
And you continue to harp on ridiculous scenarios of SexFraud that you conjure up to diminish the harm instead of recognizing the real instances of the crime that would result in an arrest. You are creating absurd examples that would merit prosecution.
It’s really time to end defending our position, the rights of women to have sex without being lied to. We dont have to defend criminalizing this, Tom simply wants to continue to have his (and other men) privileges to treat women like crap, without serious consequences. That’s all it boils down to. I imagine if lying to women resulted in the loss of his marriage, or his job, or another “serious” consequence, he would take the same position. He actually thinks an illegal act (keying a car) is ok. I know it’s tempting to defend our position, and it hopefully helps educate people about this law, but i think it’s not worth it. Let him rant, or delete him, but it’s best to ignore these people and build on the energy of people who actually want to reason this out, not protect their privileges to dominate and abuse women.
Tom,
When you talk about what real emotional trauma is and what causes it – can you tell me what training, education or expertise you have on the subject.
Thanks
I’m not an expert on emotional trauma and either are you. I’m not here to speak on that. I’m here to make a few simple legal points over and over (tonight’s my last night-other things to do) not because I think that I can convince someone like you one of Short’s “true believers” by repeating these points but because new people are coming on here from time to time. . You cant put someone in jail for two years for something that is not only not a violent crime but not a crime, period. It goes back to my point about verbal abuse. A man can be jailed for physically abusing a woman but not for verbally abusing her and the same goes for women vs. men.. What you are talking about with the male liar is basically a form of verbal abuse nothing more nothing less. Word’s come out of the male liar’s mouth that are eventually hurtful/ emotionally distressing to the female victim, with a kind of delay factor, it only happens when she finds out the words are lies, although the amount of hurt and emotional trauma suffered from finding out the liar didn’t have a beach house or a big bank account is up for debate. Something like that isn’t even in the same league as finding out your boyfriend swindled you out of all your life sayings by lying to you, an actual crime. . Men tend to spew their “verbal abuse” toward women in the form of lies of this sort, about bank accounts ,imaginary beach houses ,cars and the sort whereas women specialize in verbal abuse of another sort- demeaning , humiliating men by ridiculing their job, their finances, ,their car or lack of car, their physical size, their sexual prowess and sex organ “size” etc etc . Do I think the kind of verbal abuse women attack men with everyday (causing no doubt all sorts of “emotional trauma”) should be turned into a crime with a two year jail sentence behind it? No I do not. Neither the verbal abuse by the men (in the form of “lies”), or the verbal abuse by the women (in the form of humiliation and ridicule) should become criminalized. If a woman is in favor of criminalization of men’s verbal abuse (lies) of women, they must also be champions of the criminalization of women’s verbal abuse toward men. Of course we know women will never, NEVER be champions of that. Case closed.
Tom-
“You cant put someone in jail for two years for something that is not only not a violent crime but not a crime, period.”
You are wholeheartedly incorrect. when violence occurs in a crime, it rises to a level called “aggravated.” But not all crimes include violence and not all rape includes violence either. In fact the concept that rape must include violence has been struck down in many states across the nation. New Jersey is one such state.
All sex is a physical act therefore such contact takes place without consent, it is sexual assault, even though violence is not present.
You are just embarrassing yourself now Short.. It’s like Tiger Woods up against the Jupiter Florida High School Golf Team champ. Sorry to have to be blunt. You and your buddies have gone straight downhill since LL Lady’s post earlier today. . Did I say all crimes must include violence anywhere in my above comment? of course not. I said if an act is not even a CRIME, let alone a violent crime, you can’t be jailed for that. Please read the words that are written, rather than conjuring up something you think you see on the screen and going off on a tangent from there.. I presented a crime earlier on the thread several times in fact, a boyfriend swindling a woman out of her life savings through lying to her , a crime that does not include any violence, but is indeed a crime, with a prison term attached to it, no less. I said what you are calling a crime (male verbal abuse of women via the lies they tell them about their finances possessions and their religion) is NOT a crime, period. Male lies are a form of verbal abuse, you know like when you and Other women ridicule and humiliate your boyfriends and husbands.. Women are very familiar with verbal abuse because they are THE experts at it. LL Lady pretty much demolished your lies = “rape” argument with her excellent post. She stated that having sex with a boyfriend or date partner as a normal part of your relationship with him ,who also happens to have told you a web of lies you aren’t aware are lies, does not mean you are being “raped” by him whenever you have sex together. Sometimes to takes another woman to really put a woman’s nonsense in it’s place . Now I REALLY must be going. This is becoming embarrassing.
Tom-
I repeated and responded to your exact quote…. and I’ll give it again. “You can’t put someone in jail for two years for something that is not only not a violent crime but not a crime, period.”
LL Lady is simply wrong. And so are you! Sexual assault by fraud is a crime.
While I respect Tiger Woods’ golf skill, there are people who can defeat him. And some may have graduated from Jupiter High School.
Watch that swinging door on your way out!
Tom, you’re being very disrespectful. It does nothing for your argument and it makes you look bad. Keep in mind that Ms. Short has feelings, and that she deserves to be treated with consideration and respect regardless of whether or not you agree with her.
In addition, she is allowing you into her space on the web so you can voice your opinions. As far as I’m concerned, she’s been very generous. She could block you at any time, but she hasn’t. Please return the courtesy and decorum she exemplifies here.
Back to the subject at hand:
You said, *no state law-making body is going to just hop to and make a male liar ( finances, religion possessions, in specific) who has consensual sex with the recipient of the lies into a rapist*
It’s not consensual sex, precisely because of the lies. Consent is invalidated by fraud. The victim is unable to make an informed decision in her best interest if the information she’s given in which to make that decision is false.
I realize that in most states, at this time sex by fraud is not yet recognized. But here is why it should be:
The foundation for rape by fraud laws is already on the books in every state. It is simply the linking of two laws we already have:
1. Rape is non-consensual sex.
2. Consent is invalidated by fraud.
Therefore, it follows that if a person’s consent is not valid because of fraud the sex was actually non-consensual, which makes it rape.
You may not think sexual intimacy is as valuable or tangible as money or that being defrauded of it is as serious of a loss, and this leads you to conclude it should not be covered under fraud laws. Our bodies are our own. We are the ones who get to decide what we will do with it. We can’t make an informed decision without having the facts we need to do so.
Some people care a great deal about who they have sex with. To them, it is much more than a simple physical act, one that is the same whether you’re with Brenda or Susan or Claire. Sexual intimacy can be a profound experience, and some people choose to only share this experience with someone they know and love and trust. Conversely, it can also be a profound violation when they learn they were deceived and their love, their trust — and their consent — was completely unwarranted.
It’s not true that “no state law-making body” is going to pass this law — it’s already on the books in Alabama and Tennessee, and I believe a couple of other states. People who live there are not lined up at the police station because someone said they “owned a beach house,” to borrow your example. You’re trivializing the matter because you clearly don’t understand what’s involved, either in the depth of the fraud or its effects on the victim. .
Have you read some descriptions of the types of situations that this law might apply to? Read a couple of stories, if you dare:
http://www.kissofperspective.com/kiss-blog/would-you-know-you-loved-a-psychopath
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2610749/EXCLUSIVE-Moment-heartbroken-woman-conned-globally-infamous-fraudster-bigamist-fake-CIA-agent-turned-tables-New-Jersey-parking-lot-police-sting.html
ab
MissyW-
Well said! Thanks!
Other cases people can read are written here on this blog both in comments and under CAD Tales. Also, I wrote my book, “Carnal Abuse by Deceit” to give people a real sense of what this crime is about.
Missy W your two examples are not successful refutations or invalidations of my views at all. The first example is a man who is clearly a classic cad, and scoundrel , and a pathological liar ( not the same type of common male occasional noncriminal liar or embellisher I’m talking about at all) . This is a type of man who has been around for centuries and grown woman have successfully dealt with his type for centuries without having to go running to a police station or a lawyer.She solved her own issue by dumping him.. The second villain actually PROVES my points. Theft by fraud- I’ve already stated that is a crime on the books and as you can see it was dealt with by law enforcement. Bigamy- already a crime, dealt with by cops. Impersonation of a law enforcement officer- already a crime, (something I’ve never condoned or advocated) and dealt with by law enforcement officers. Your claims that my examples of prosecution under Short’s law are fanciful or trival things that won’t happen isn’t exactly true. Short never denies that men could be prosecuted for my “crimes” I put up as exaqmples she simply states the plaintiff would have to meet certain “high bars” , proof, responsible fact-checking of the lies, and one time she mentioned fake documents as perhaps a necessary component). As long as the fake documents are not part of a financial fraud or other fraud they are not criminally actionable per se and of course just the kinds of lies I mentioned, by themselves are not crimes and should not be made into crimes regardless of “proof ” or “responsible behavior” by the victim to try to catch him in the lies..
Tom-
It appears that you really have no idea what you’re talking about regarding what is and is not a crime. You claim that things are a crime that are not, and things aren’t a crime that are. Engaging with someone who simply speaks without any knowledge and gets nasty when he’s corrected is not a reasonable debate. For that reason, I’m going to block your further involvement on the site. Sorry, but you’ve pushed beyond my tolerance.
Tom, I don’t think a rape-by-fraud law is intended for a “common male occasional noncriminal liar or embellisher.” Joyce, please correct me if I’m wrong.
I believe it is intended for the person you characterized a “a scoundrel and a pathological liar.” I call them con artists.
I disagree with you that fake documents only pertain to financial fraud. Someone who produces fake documents is squarely in the category of pathological liar, and it shows a clear intent to con someone in more ways than one, a clear intent to thwart a person’s ability to make decisions in their best interest that goes far beyond the financial realm.
Don’t forget, we’re not talking about someone who is in a limited role, such as a financial adviser. We’re talking about someone posing as a romantic partner, even a fiance or husband or wife. The person in that role is usually the most intimate, important and influential in someone’s life. Please try to imagine for a moment if you fell in love with a woman, and believed she shared your values, goals, etc., and you married her, in a ceremony performed in front of all your family and friends. You had a child together.
Now imagine how you would feel if you found out she was not at all who or what she said she was, and that this stranger was duping you and using you and lying to you in every way. You would feel shocked, angry, devastated, and deeply and profoundly betrayed and victimized, because EVERY facet of your life and yourself were violated. It’s not a big stretch from there to imagine that many people would rightfully conclude they had been sexually violated as well.
This is basically what Ms. Short experienced, and she knows firsthand the devastation she and others experience in such a situation. It’s a profound violation of everything you are, body, mind, and soul, and it is damaging. The damages go far beyond finances.
This kind of harm might not be recognized as a crime now, but it should be. Anyone who harms another person in this manner deserves to face criminal charges, and society should be protected from individuals like this. This type of person is a predator, plain and simple, in every way…including sexually. They infiltrate someone’s entire life. Their fraud extends to every aspect of the victims life.
It’s heinous. To find out the person you loved and trusted was nothing more than a stranger and a predator is deeply disturbing, and a real offense to someone’s most basic rights as a human being, such as their right to dignity, sovereignty, autonomy, freedom and self-determination.
Please show some empathy and compassion for Ms. Short and others who are victimized in this way. I realize you may not have understood the extent of what she experienced. Again, I think these are the types of situations this law would apply to.
MissyW,
Great Post!
But, but! Boozer ! the 2015 American white woman Is a delicate little flower incapable of discerning your normal male braggadocio about finances and possessions from 100% honest chatter. Heartless narcissist! She thought she was having sex with Boozer the beach house owner.
This webpage is really PHD level material , Piled Higher and Deeper.
Tom,
If we are weak flowers – you make fun of us. If we are strong independent women – you call us feminists. If you expect a woman to be what a man considers attractive, and we have plastic surgery to try and meet the horrendous pressures put on us by men – now you want to say you have been raped for the very pressure you put on us to go risk our lives and mutilate our bodies. Our young girls are starving themselves and committing suicide because of the unrealistic pressures put upon females.
Maybe, just maybe it’s the women that have figured out that all a man wants from us is bigger butts and boobs so we can fulfill his sexual desires and if we can’t meet that mold, I guess we are worthless. Boozer I doubt your mother or father feel that his sperm was much more valuable when they created you. Go ask your mom how she feels about your comment.
1nina-
Unfortunately, Tom’s answer sank to a level of insult and mischaracterization that undermine’s debate, so I’ve stricken it. If he comes back with a response that does not incorporate ad hominem attacks, I’ll be happy to give him space. Raising points based on their merit is an acceptable form of discussion on this blog, but hurling insults simply won’t be tolerated.
And your question to Boozer was very astute. I wonder what his mother would tell him about his mindset.
Thanks for your contribution.
Joyce
I agree that you should not have to give out all your personal information if you have just met at a bar. If the two of you want to have sex with a stranger and possibly risk your life and risk getting infected, possibly for life with an STD, than that is certainly your choice. This type of meeting is “situational”, and all cases are different. You did concern me with the comment about putting your best spin on things – what do you mean? The other comment was about your sperm being the only thing as valuable. Seriously? Why do you totally devalue her body- it wasn’t even acknowledged in your comment. Why is your sperm held more valuable in your eyes than her eggs?